Advanced Prostate Cancer
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Where Did Our Cancer Go, Where is it Hiding

This post is for all Pca Patients, but more so for those that by whatever treatment modality, reached a nadir of Undetectable in terms of PSA. There are many hundreds of men on this site at some point during their Pca Journey reached an undetectable PSA. Many of us have known that at some point down the road there would be a recurrence. of PSA, or in other words the Pca is active again. Our Doctors told us it would eventually happen.

Well has anyone ever asked their Doctors what the odds of a cure, or never having your PSA come back with a number over 0.2. Some have suggested less than 5%. I had one Doc. tell me it was more like 2%. If you lived long enough!

Well as an ex researcher, I have a curious mind. If one is undetectable, {where did the cancer go to]. Since it is suppose to come back in 95% of the once undetectable patients. Where is it? Where is it Hiding? Why can we not find it? Did our bodies decide to create new Pca cells, after having blood tests that said none could be detected.

Now I have asked a few respected Doctors in the field of Urological Prostate Cancer, and Medical Oncologists that specialize in Pca. Those of us who have asked probably got the same kind of answers I did.

1] The Pca is asleep

2] The Pca is in Hibernation

3] It has found a place to hide

4] It is in a dormant equilibrium [now I can buy this somewhat]

5] It was so beat up, it cannot at this time give off any PSA, so we do not know it is there. But it is!

And there are other theories. But collectively think about this. When our PSA burden is so low---if all the cancer cells were lined up and if they are less than a half a centimeter, we cannot detect them by today's scans---One day we may get down so low to be able to count cells.

But the greater point here is where are they? I had a friend who we just buried--who went 12 years with Undetectable PSA's. In his last 3 years after he lost his undetectable PSA's he went thru hell--Xtandi, Zytiga, 2 types of Chemo, Radium 223, Radiation to Mets. And then one day--he said he had enough, and took the Morphine drip. I ask where the F*** did his cancer go for 12 years. Someone tell me!!!!!!!!!! How did it stay dead but was yet still alive.

Men on this site have quoted many years of Undetectable PSA's to only have a return, and to fight anew.

So what is it that is so unique to certain cancers, that you can go into remission, and the cancer will almost always return, if given enough time. As I have said before,"Cancer is not of the Earth".

Now how did I get to write this balderdash above? I was asked a question by someone who follows me. The Question Was----Nalakrats, if you are undetectable why are you maintaining all of your supplements and drugs outside of the stopping of Vantas[Lupron], and Casodex. It was a great question. And I had an answer. As I had been thinking about this subject, a long time. My conclusion is number 4] above---A Dormant Equilibrium.

It is my theory that when we get down to an undetectable PSA, what we have is a very low burden of Pca cells, that go back and forth between being productive and being dormant. The activity is so low we do not detect it by blood tests or scans. Now this equilibrium can last for a couple of months, or for 12 years like my friend Jerry. That something breaks the equilibrium, of going from live to dormancy to live to dormancy. What that is I can speculate a dozen things--none with proof as there is no proof to my hypothesis of Dormant Equilibrium. Logic says that dead is dead. But defining Hibernation, or Cellular Sleep is hard to do.

So if I am right, I keep myself loaded up with my supplemental/drug program---without ADT, while on vacation---so everything is there if I lose the Equilibrium Theory I put forth, to prevent Castrate Resistance, allowing me the ability to return to ADT therapy. I just cannot believe that living cells, even cancer ones can stay dormant for 12 years. Or hide for 12 years.

Anyone have a better answer--or heard from a medico---something more exacting. I would be interested in other theories.

Nalakrats

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I asked a Doc at The Mayo Clinic and his answer was stem cells and also the fact that ADT killed off almost all the hormone sensitive cells. 12 years of <.1 PSA is very unusual...my Onco said the time to BCR after the first course of ADT is usually 18 months...getting progressively shorter with each subsequent course of ADT until the development of CR.

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What stem cells--where the hell are they during that so called 18 month answer you got from your Doc. Are you saying we have cancer stem cells that are not detectable, but at some time in the future they become whole fully functional Hormone Sensitive Pca cells. I ain't buying.

Nalakrats

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What a projection!

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The whole thing is insane. I had my first BCR and going through radiation, asked my onc, where is this stuff and how big. She said, if they are all together, look at an article on the web, find a lower case 'o' and it is maybe half or a quarter of that at best.

Then you take ADT and it is non-detectable, having to explain that to people is fun in itself. Well yes the cancer is technically in remission, but no it is not dead, it hides and at some point it will probably come back.

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In the case of my friend--it hid for 12 years! Not believable.

Nalakrats

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If the cancer cells are dormant how do you detect them...all the current methods look for a "hot spot" either the cells are putting something out or taking something in....in your friends case what was the trigger that caused the dormant cells to become metabolically active...the answer lies in the fact that not only did the dormant cells become active but they were far more aggressive which is usually the case when cancer comes back. So, the question is how did the cancer cells become more aggressive...they were dormant but not dead...look at Nature...when the environment changes 90% of the bacteria die but the 10% that survive have become resistant to the antibiotic and are more aggressive. So, the answer is changes at the genetic level and these changes can take years to occur....so with cancer you are dealing with a genetic time bomb. All the new drug treatments Lupron - Chemo -Zytiga - Xtandi - Apalutamide - Darolutamide - Proxilutamide knock the bad boy down until the cancer evolves at the genetic level to get around the new drug.

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Sorry for your friend Nal .Realistically 12 yrs was a miracle.

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The 3 years after the 12 were misery--Thanks Lulu.

Nalakrats

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My own brother told me after my first clear report almost two years ago “ you beat cancer” . “” sure glad that’s over” Nobody has any desire to know the day to day living conditions of someone fighting APC ..Only us fighting and their partners.. it’s an intimate disease .. all hush hush , not a good dinner subject. After reading HL for 1month we see the stark realities happening to good people . I deduct that we here all in it together.. stay active....we humans can adjust to almost anything.. keep rowing until we get to the falls. Even if it’s Niagra falls! No slowly turning away from this one and no getting out of the boat. We’re all going off of the falls someday.... hopefully for you and I and most of us today is not “That day”. Stay afloat ,tread water ,keeping paddling. Bombs away at APC!

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Cancer is Nature's Terminator it evolved to kill off the old people

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Yeah--but where was it while undetectable---got a good Gator Answer.

Nalakrats

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Unfortunately it hits the young also. Childhood cancer is a horror for all.

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There are people on this forum who have been castrate resistance for 10 and 12 years. I want to delay PCa, so I can avoid a Pca death. I would like to die in my sleep, or have a massive heart attack and be dead before my body hits the ground.Because I have A-Fib, hypertension. kidney disease, and diabetes; in addition to Pca, I have an excellent chance of death not from Pca. I have all sort of time bombs in my body. In the mean time have fun, and plan to be around, for worry is not going to change the outcome to your life.

God Bless,

Rich

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Not worrying---just like to know some answers.

Nalakrats

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To BigRich, You are loaded.I have not right to complain after reading what’s on your plate , I pale in comparison. You’re my hero. Hang tuff!!!

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Thank you. for your kind comments. We both have a long way to go in life. He never promised us a smooth sail, just a safe port.

God Bless,

Rich

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Any port in a storm . Gods will be done ...I’ve seen bad and good in my life. But the beauty that I’ve seen is worth the price of admission. Thank you. God bless you !

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In my journey I have consulted some of the top specialists from MD Anderson and UCSF. I got all the same answers you listed above. I am with you I don’t buy any of them! What I do know is no one has an answer that I can accept. If they do find the answer we might see the day where PCA is treated as a chronic illness that forever remains in remission. The “cure” may be keeping the disease in remission. Over the last 4 years I have struggled with finding the answer to a similar question: What is the minimum PSA level that defines a cure? Don’t tell me less than 0.2 PSA. I am living proof that is not correct. Doctor’s told me I was cured 2 years after my prostatectomy 6 months later my PSA was rising quickly and near 0.2. I chose SRT and now my PSA is undetectable and very low almost 2 years later. I don’t believe I am cured. Like you I am also taking a handful of supplements every morning, following a plant based diet, running, biking and strength training more than I ever have in my life. I ask myself why? I just can’t sit and wait for the researchers to find a “cure”. I feel like I have to be doing something. That something to me is eating healthy and exercise. I am a G9 and more likely than not the PCA will be on the move again at some time. I now spend my time following research hoping one day a “cure” of some sort will be found. So after my long rambling diatribe I don’t have an answer to your question. Maybe its better we don’t have some answers. It’s a great question that made me ponder and stay focused on what’s important...living every day like its my first. Thanks and always like reading your posts!

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You surely do understand--thanks for your response, bitittle.

Nalakrats

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I am also being treated at UCSF, am stage 4,G9, Mets,nodes, on Lupron, did IMRT/VMAT and psa down to .063 from 310. What supplements are you taking? I would be very interested as I am researching appropriate supplements. Jack H. Mil Valley, Ca.

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The supplements I take for PCA are the following: Holy Basil, Muscadine Grape Seed, Curcumin(CurcuBrain), Vitamin D, Liposomal Vitamin C, R-Alpha-Lipoic Acid. I also take other supplements but not for PCA. Do your research on the above supplements and make your own decisions. None of the above supplements have been recommended or prescribed by Dr.’s other than Vitamin D. I did my own research and others on this forum from time to time share research on supplements. Good luck!

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Oops forgot one...one more supplement I take is Turkey Tail Mushroom extract

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I have done a lot of research. My MO recommended ALA for peripheral neuropathy, calcium with Vit D, curcumin, and broccoli. I am also taking Modified citrus pectin, fish oli and am considering Wisconsin Ginseng for fatigue.

JH

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I grew up in Marin. I love Mil Valley. Nice place to be. Nice time of year out there I visited last week . Take care.

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I have done a lot of research. My MO recommended ALA alpha lipoic acid for my peripheral neuropathy caused by chemo. Not working so far. MO also recommended curcumin, brocollli, and calcium and Vit D.

I am also taking modified citrus pectin and fish oil. Am considering Wisconsin ginseng for fatigue.

JH

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Nal has nutrients down .You need a career in chemistry to gain this type of knowledge normally. I follow Nal on nutrients. He knows .

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I do not discuss this in an open public forum. As it might be considered giving medical advice--and I am not a Doctor. Send me a message, and we can have a discussion, on supplements.

Nalakrats

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Hey Nalakrats, this is Mota59 i was dxs on 4/17/18 with stage 4 pca my psa was 800 with bone mets, i would like to start a supplement addition to my battle, but only want the real deal, can you help?

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Send me your Pca info, and details and request, what is on your mind on messenger. I am not a Doctor and I do not prescribe, but have general information you might be able to use.

Nalakrats

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Great post! Thanks. If you’re not having pain or bad symptoms I think that you can go fir a long time.

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What a great discussion guys it certainly got my dormant (or nearly dead) brain cells working for a bit. Can’t add much but I have been wondering if as one gets older ( I’m 71 now) if the Pca cancer cells become less active as the metabolism slows down.

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Sure hope so. Not sure if that’s how it works.

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Interesting questions to ponder gentlemen. When my PSA began rising 8 months ago, I went to Phoenix for the c-11 acetate imaging and they found three very very small mets. In fact they weren't even positive they were mets. Although they and ucla both said "highly suspicious for mets". Dr mark scholz who in CA who is a strictly prostate oncologist and has written two books on PC had interesting advise. While the cancer was limited and while my PSA was not that high, he wanted to hit it with everything. Chemo , lupron and zytega and radiate the three mets. His theory was if you get it early enough shooting from 3 or 4 different directions you may get a long term remission or even a cure. Keep in mind that lupron and zytega were recently shown to be much more effective early on together than either was alone. And lupron and chemo were also more effective together than alone. So despite no formal studies using all 3 together he had been doing just that. He theorized that whatever was being left over hiding after lupron (when most people go to "undetectable") may be destroyed with the other two. I discussed with ucla Drs and while they agreed in theory that all 3 early could get good results, they could not allow it without a formal study. I discussed with A good friend who is a Breast cancer oncologist and he agreed I should go with all 3. He used an analogy of a trash can fire that's easier to put out vs a forest fire. Much easier to douse all the embers (or cancer cells) in a trash can for sure so he advised me to go with Scholz advise. So I'm a guenea pig and I'll let you know how it works. Down to .05 but we all know that could last a long time or not so much. By the way the Breast cancer oncologist had advised my wife ( who had an aggressive Her2 positive breast cancer 15 years ago ) to try a new drug called herceptin. It was working well in tests on advanced breast cancers although not lasting very long. His theory was the same. Best to attack her aggressive breast cancer early when only in the lymph nodes. Ucla also advise no. She's fine 15 years later and since her treatment Herceptin was proven to reduce recurrence in her type of cancer by some 70%. My point is maybe these "dormant " or "hidden" cancer cells can be found and destroyed by early full on intervention vs saving bullets for later. Latest testing on combination treatments in early stage Mets so far surely points in that direction

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Funny. This treatment is how my doctor decided to address my stage 4. 6 rounds of chemo, lupron and Zytiga every 30 days. That was 18 months ago PSA is still undetected,still on the 30 day shot route. Did switch me to Xgeva and Lupron but feeling pretty good. He won’t use words like remission but he’s satisfied with where I’m at right now

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Nothing wrong with good news! Roll

With it!!! We are just fleas on the dogs back along for the ride. Good days, no pain , no PSA, make the most of it. Have a greeaaatt weekend!

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Thank god for your wife’s recovery and 15 yrs. All of this suffering is the part of life that we endure to enjoy the “good “ stuff in life. I hope there are some clear sky’s ahead for all

Of us. Just have to persist during the storms, so we are here to feel the sun on our faces.

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Great Thinking Nalakrats

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Just a wild speculation, but perhaps the cancer is not so much "hiding" as the individual cancer cells that remain after the initial treatment(s) are only very slowly dying off due to complex apoptosis (cell death) factors involving cellular death signaling, while also taking into account the rate at which the body's immune system may be simultaneously recognizing them as "foreign" and eliminating individual cells just fast enough to keep them undetectable on tests and scans?

And perhaps the recurrence eventually happens when the "micro-mets" get to be a certain (still very small) size, and/or perhaps the interior of those mini-tumors become inaccessible to wandering immune system cells, or perhaps develop further mutations that interfere with "signaling" that makes them appear as "foreign", and eventually their rate of growth exceeds their apoptosis rate + immune system rate of elimination?

The apoptosis rate of bone cells and some connective tissues can run into years. The cellular level environment in those places might be more conducive for what appears to be "hiding out"?

Note also that that normal bone cells and some connective tissue cells can individually live for many years before natural apoptosis. And some heart muscle cells and brain cells can live for decades.

Lots of room for future biological/chemical study.

Charles

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Great Discourse.

Nalakrats

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Great post.....I think the same way. There are no definitive answers.....live life to the full.

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Thank you, Nalakrats; you give voice - and then research - to many of our thoughts.

On an outside level, I suppose some of the mystery has to do with the nature of the tests/scans themselves. PSA is not prostate cancer itself but a product of that cancer; it can even be a product of non-cancerous inflamed “normal” prostate cells. (I know you know this ... writing for the group here.) Undetectable PSA means this antigen is so low in the blood stream that our blood analysis cannot detect it. This could mean the cancer is gone/defeated. Or, it could mean the cancer cells are doing their thing at various metastatic sites but without secreting PSA. Or, perhaps they are scattered and living in some sort of dormant equilibrium waiting for epigenetics to turn them from dormant to destructive again.

The same is true for the nuclear bone scans and the various PET scans; they don’t measure cancer, they measure uptakes. Now, my large glows/uptakes are almost certainly metastatic sites, but the smaller ones are just suspicions... maybe a cracked rib, maybe an infection. My 16 NaFl PET scans have all shown hotspots on my skull, sinuses, ribs that do not show up on nuclear bone scans or CTs. NIH docs assume they are spurious but always reoccurring. My point is, the scans react to uptakes and not necessarily the cancer itself.

It’s hard to find an oncologist with compassionate imagination. Every one I’ve dealt with in these 12 years has been like consulting with a computer’s flowchart: if A then B ... if C then D ... if F then G (or, maybe H if the patient lives long enough for H to be FDA approved). They seem to have no education in the “What if there currently is no A or B category? Then there is no “A” to plug into their flow chart or “PROTOCOL.” I think our Where is it hiding question fits into this area, and they have no answers.

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Great Thinking

Nalakrats

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Actually, I believe you are correct, that the PCa cells go between periods of activity and dormancy. Funnily enough, I came across this article just today before I even read your post.

realclearscience.com/articl...

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Thanks!

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To VisualDeadlock. Can yo do me a favor and create a Post for the article in realclearscience.com/article.

There is some important info---especially related to use of anti-inflammatory Drugs.

Nalakrats

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Certainly.

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Thanks I am going to add to this.

Nalakrats

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Very interesting discussion. Right now, the possibility of having 12 more years is very enticing. I figure that within that time frame there will be many changes in treatment protocols, and a whole new batch of drugs that individually, or (more likely) as a “cocktail” that will make advanced PCa a chronic disease.

Like BigRich, I would like to avoid a PCa death, and go out like in the joke, “When my time comes I want to go out like my grandfather did, peacefully and in my sleep...not screaming and crying like the passengers in his car.”

And, regarding Nalakrats’ possibilities of where the cancer goes when PSA is undetectable, I would like to propose a 5th possibility...that the cancer is on vacation. If so, I hope it’s a very extended vacation...in North Dakota...in the winter.

Woke up this morning feeling pretty good. Shot an 88 yesterday at a fairly tough and challenging golf course. No, it was not from the pink (ladies) tees. It was from the senior tees (about 5 feet behind the ladies tees). 🏌️⛳️

Life is good. God is great. And in spite of the challenges everyone in here is facing, we are all blessed. 🙏

Have a great day everyone. 😎

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Hallelujah Liteny!!! Thanks !!

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Nice round my Brother. Keep it up, where did you tee it up?

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It’s the first time I’ve broken 90 since last November when I started chemo. We went to Country Ckub of Mt. Dora (Florida). One of my usual foursome is a member there. Do you partake in the nasty game? 🏌️⛳️😎

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Yes and no. I played a lot in the 80's and 90's. Got my HDCP down to a 2.4 and then I got married. Not much time to practice or play. In 2000 I lost both of my parents within three months of each other and then in December 2001 one of my best friends and my golf partner passed away suddenly and I just lost my desire to play. Since then I have played maybe 10-15 times. I am starting to get back into it. I still follow the game and buy clubs (crazy, I know). I am 72 so at this point and I just want to get on the course again. I think that what I love most about the game is the places that it takes you. I am rambling so I'll stop here. Happy that you got out and had a wonderful day. Maybe we should become friends on FB. God Bless my Brother.

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Not crazy at all. And keep it up. I can see why you gave it up after all the tragedy in such a short period. I didn’t really take up the game until I was about 50 at (get this) the urging of my wife! I got pretty much instantly addicted to it. It’s worse than opiates. She now realizes she created a monster when she encouraged me to take up the nasty sport. I have played (badly) regularly since then (18 years), and gone through more golf clubs than I can count.

You must have been a great golfer to get your handicap that low. Mine has never been in single digits, and mostly hovered around 14-18 (it dipped to 18 recently during my chemo, but it’s creeping back up to the 16-17 range. Most of the guys I play with in my regular group are in their mid-70’s and are hackers like me. We stay pretty close to the USGA rule book, play our lies, and count our penalty stokes, but occasionally take a few liberties. We’re just out there to have fun and get a little sunshine and exercise.

My wife is a FB fanatic, but I avoid it (and pretty much all social media other than our little cancer blog group). I think we can follow each other in here, though, and keep in touch on our golf news and life in general.

Bless you back, brother! Have a good evening.

Mark

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Beautiful surroundings. fresh air, good friends and enjoying the game is what it is all about. I have always believed that a low score for one players brings the same amount of joy as a low score for another player regardless of their handicaps. Tee it up and enjoy the moment. I have played a lot of golf by myself and would get out on the course all alone. I would wait until the 2nd hole or so, look around to make sure that there was no one else nearby and then just yell out loud with pure happiness. Enjoy the game my Brother.

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Twer to curious to conside lt so from Shakespeare. The complexity is in our minds and the ansewer may be simple as this nasty beast plays hide and seek with us. Happy hunting. Rocco

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To be or not to be? that is the questions.

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Wow. What a great question. This whole thing doesn’t make since to me that it will hide for so long and then boom it’s back.

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It doesn’t have to make sense to us. APC has happily fine tuned it’s skills on man for thousands of years at least. And we’re trying to figure it out now ..Gook luck!!!

We’re going to need it. !

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Nalakrats, good thinking but I have a different idea. Think about it: Cancer is really our own cells that are damage and then mutate into a different beast. Our immune system cannot recognize these mutated cells and they grow and replicate itself to eventually becomes tumors. As long as we carry damaged genetic strain, and our immune system cannot detect and kill them. All the modality you mentioned only kill the “symptoms”, not the cause of cancer. Why can’t we find them? our scan technology focuses on finding mets/tumors. Perhaps it is time that scientists need a new paradigm: find these defective genes that cause PC and you’ll get the “cure” you are after. One other thought: the study on role of PARP and PTEN in our PCa is in my opinion the best option for a “cure”. If our immune system can be awaken to recognize a damaged cell and kill it, then there will be no more mets in our body.

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Cmdr,

Genetics is the key. Until now there are 3 routes to rid cancer . 1) cut it out and hope the you got all the cells, 2) Radiate an area and scorch earth good and bad cells. 3) Poison that again kills both good and bad. But this is not a curative or even chronic management approach. If you have a bacterial infection, you take an antibiotic whose mission is to seek out and destroy the bacteria.

Right now immunotherapy, CAR-T, etc are at least moving in the right direction. I believe in 20 yrs oncologists won't even talk in terms of cancer like today. Instead of you have prostate, ovarian, breast, lung cancer, etc. It will be you have genetic defect XYZ that presented in ABC area. And hopefully, we will have treatments that focus on the genetic biomarker (and we can confidently put together the combinations of treatments that work).

I am hopeful we are moving in that direction, but it will take time.

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Interesting thoughts.

Nakakrats

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Excellent post, thank you.

Here's one aspect of the answer: we measure PSA, but PSA is NOT prostate cancer. It is a proxy, a marker, a convenient means to estimate the cancer burden, but it is not cancer.

All proxies have shortfalls and failings, PSA is no different.

Because of the focus on PSA, many treatments are honed to drive PSA to zero or at least near undetectable limits. But PSA is not cancer. There are prostate cancer cells that don't produce much PSA. If the number of prostate cancer cells is less than a million, it probably can't be detected by imaging or PSA - but it is still cancer, still growing.

So perhaps the question is "How do we find and treat the remaining cancer after the PSA marker is near zero and no longer useful?"

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There is an article on this I hope to get posted.

Nalakrats

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A great question. So, what is the life of a cell, how long does it live? If we are immeasurable for say 7 years, surely all the cancer cells must have ‘passed away’, gone to meet their maker, demised, joined the choir invisibule, become late, no more, become an ex cell, passed. So where are the little buggers?

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There will be a follow up post--once I read all the 60-70 responses I got.

Nalakrats

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Something to consider

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I can’t retrieve this video ..

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Myers on PCA dormancy:

askdrmyers.wordpress.com/20...

-Patrick

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New Info I will be discussing as to Dormancy.

Nalakrats

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This article defines my thinking of Equilibrium Dormancy--it speaks in a balance of cell death and angiogenesis.

Nalakrats

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But the question is can we measure dormancy--and can we attack dormant Pca cells--there just might be!

Nalakrats

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Sorry; check out Dr. Myers U Tube video on PSA confusion.

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I too wonder. I have been fighting PC for 19 years, and am still kicking. With a Gleason of 43 0r 44, my surgery worked for a year, but here I am some 18 years beyond that. My psa gets to 5 give or take and I start another round of AHT. For whatever reason, these rounds keep working, although my off time has now been shortened so I know that I am reaching the end. I too would like to know where the PC cells go, asleep???

AND NOBODY KNOWS it would seem-and is this not one of the if not the most important questions that we should know or ask to know or find out, by whatever means possible????????

Keep up the good fight boys, but make your bucket lists, get off your butts and live large, for the clock is ticking and there is no point in spending all your time in this war. The current treatments beyond AHT are all short term, and for me, once I fail that, I am done, and to me that is ok. I think we need to talk about this more, as life is for the living, and stepping into the final stage of this war, is simply, in my view a waste of energy and time, which we do not have.

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Outstanding view!!

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I’d say after 10years you know what the F @@@ you are talking about. No energy to waste on Gloom or Doom. Let the scientist figure it out..I’m transplanting cacti today and happy to be alive..getting off the computer. Thank for your words. Enjoy !!

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My psa is hiding in my dick which is also hiding.

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Saturday 04/28/2018 11:33 AM EDT

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Is your Dick big enough to hide your PSA---now remember PSA is not Cancer Cells.

Nalakrats

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A j-o-h-n who hailed from Lynch

Used to rent out his tool by the inch.

A foot cost a quid --

He could and he did

Stretch it to three in a pinch.

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Saturday 04/28/2018 7:47 PM EDT

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If we’re getting paid by the inch we are screwed!

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videoblocks.com/video/cryin...

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Sunday 04/29/2018 1:20 AM EDT

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I go with the concept of cancer dormancy, and I appreciate the Myers video that was posted that discusses the concept. I credit him as being the one who beat it into a dormant stage - my stage 4 cancer has been undetectable for over three and a half years now. I maintain triple ADT, Mediterranean diet, exercise, Metform, supplements etc. to maintain dormancy, I don't want to create conditions for those dormant "seeds" to sprout. I realize this state can change at any time and savor each day.

One More Cast...

Ed

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That’s the brutal truth. So live for today. Ed Bar, you’ve got it right.

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Your on the right track I believe---as to supplements/drugs and dormancy--I may be posting on this later.

Nalakrats

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Eddie:

Please get a detail of your drug, cycles, times etc. and share with us asap. Also provide some short notes on the med diet, and all else. I am the longest living guy from our org group, have undergone several drug trials, do the same at you 3 IHT, hit it hard as hell, then off to get me back to some degree of functioning. 18 years in, something I am doing must be right, and we need to share with all men, as it is the only way to get some traction on PC and our demise. I take mostly lupron as I do not believe-nor have I seen a single study that shows that a 3 month, or 6 month dosage is as effective.

On irony in my case, is that I drink a lot of skim milk, i.e. 1 plus quarts a day. Have since childhood. When I stop for a few days, man it turns me upside-down. My thought is the estrogen in milk might be of some assistance. Again, no studies or research that I am aware on this. Other than that, I try to keep away from red meat, after eating a cow a month for 40 years.

Lets see if we can get a group together who share our meds etc. and see if we have something to give to others. thanks troops. tried to get my big bike going today, but lost the damn key but rest assured I will be on it early next week, no matter what!!!!!!!!!

Did get my hot rod out for a spin, felt great!!!!!-BUCKET LIST BOYS MAKE ONE AND LIVE IT TIL YOU DROP

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billyboy3,

If you click on my profile you can see past and current treatments. As for diet, I was a patient of Dr. Myers so I follow his protocol. I haven't backed off triple ADT at this point, if it works don't fix it, I want to just let that sleeping dog lie, I have a lot of fish to catch yet! Glad to here you're still going strong after so many years, it gives hope, continue to hang tough brother!

Ed

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That’s the $60,000 dollar question. Even if hidden as I am unless that changes with my report on Monday. No signs, no PSA..if I’m

That lucky again Hallelujah! Even though in hiding . The chemical alterations that I feel everyday show me that Damage Done is not correctable and that we are all

Living on borrowed time. I’ll be 57 5-9 and that’s a miracle that I’m

Even here. If I see 60, that’ll be something. We are all walking medical

Experiments. The problem is that we “_Know” that this shit is lurking inside of us and there is nothing that we can to stop it..We’re trying to slow it down so we can live another day of life. But this APC is a master. It’s been tuning it’s forks on millions of men before us. We,re just it’s latest crop . This is it. Enjoy it while it last. I’ve been guilty of being an over optimist in life before APC .Now that I’m

I seeing how short life is I’m a realist.

Belive in God and miracles and take each day as a gift and give thanks..Thank you Nal, for helping so many with your wisdom.Have a fine weekend friend.

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Hello everyone! Since PSA is considered undetectable?

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So, I hear "dormant" cancer cells and and equilibrium between cancer production and death of those cell as the 2 main hypothesis-correct?

Can we see a dormant cell , even with an electron microscope or is it a hypothetical entity waiting to be found like dark matter,or possibly like the Higgs that went from theoretical to found? Does anyone have a hypothesis as what mechanism in the cell shuts down to make it dormant?

The equilibrium approach, defined where at very low volume, there is balance between growth and death. So, the environment is just right to keep this delicate balance. Inflammation, certain viral infections, ie, some change in the body that affects this balance occurs. Or perhaps and/or that epigenetic change upsets this balance, like the list above. This environmental change timeframe would perhaps depend on Gleason, remaining volume (increasing probability of occurring ) and time, in a complex relationship.

Perhaps I missed it, but did anyone mention use of PSMA therapy to help reduce remaining volume? Can a Pca cell have no PSA but still present PSMA ?

My Dr also mentioned that Stem Cells would be the culprit in terms of resurgence.

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Welcome to the discussion. Interesting, I would say.

Nalakrats

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And yet we have those with Pca--and upon evaluation of their 340 Genes for mutations show none mutated---how do you square that circle???

Nalakrats

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Yes I know.

Nalakrats

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I am well read up on this article and will post some food for thought as it relates to what we can do when our Pca is in a Dormancy Equilibrium. Just finished first hand draft.

Nalakrats

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Hallo Nalokrats

Last year when I received my external beam radiation my oncologist warned me that twenty years from now on I will get cancer of a different kind because of the radiation.

And yes, this is the second time I reached 0.2

When I did my reading on Artemesinin and its derivatives, they explain how the basic/stem cells - the buggers that started the original colony - has got the ability to spew out chemo. They use the chemo and catalysis it out.

So. I have received my last Lucrin this week. But I keep stuffing my belly morning day and night with capsaicin, lycopene, Quercitin, flax, dandelion combined with milkthistle. And no eggs, red meat, no milk etc. If I made it for another ten years, I will accept it and thank God for my good time on earth. I am fighting tubular prostate cancer. Our life expectancy is about half of normal pc.

At the moment all bone scans and 2 MRI's show the cancer is gone. Don't trust it. More trust in capsaicin, lycopene and Artemether.

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Some believe that everyone is walking around with can. cells in the blood which are controlle by a strong immune system which is why provenge works best early on so balance as cancer cells reawaken with titrated lmmuno. and chemo never giviing more for less cancer or less for more cancer since we have no cure and controll is key till we do. Rocco

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Well Put.

Nalakrats

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