Hi all, recently been posting on the Prostate Cancer forum, but wanted to ask a question here with those folks who've had more experience and more knowledgable with this disease then myself.
Quick stats: Age 42, had a suspicious MRI that found something around my prostate. PSA is 0.33, normal size prostate, DRE normal. Did an mpMRI, PI RADS 2, did a TRUS Biopsy - did not find cancer, but found some areas of atypical small acinar proliferations (ASAP). Based on google, seems like I would have a high chance of finding PCa in a repeat biopsy.
Been thinking last couple of days, in trying some natural remedies. I think I have time, and my Uro probably wont suggest any kind of treatment until at least a few months when we can redo some of these tests. I figure in the mean time, I can try out some natural remedies, such as IP6, beta glucan, Selenium, etc etc..
But I'm starting to doubt if its worth it. Kind of based on what I am seeing in these forums, many folks are doing the same, but no-one seems to have found the right cocktail or mix of something that is effective. Maybe in the short-term, and maybe in dealing with side effects of chemo/radiation...but a more effective yet good QoL solution?
I seriously mean no disrespect, and I know I am not expressing myself in the best and most positive way possible. But, why do I think I can figure something out that will save me if so many others who are smarter and have had to deal with more of this disease then I have, haven't been able to? Know what I am trying to say?
Thanks, and sorry, I know this post sounds really odd I guess...
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There is only one kind of drug that has been found to prevent prostate cancer - it's called a 5-α-reductase inhibitor (5ARi), and the best known brands are Proscar and Avodart. Proscar is available as a cheaper generic - finasteride. It will also shrink your prostate, reducing PSA, and re-grow lost hair. In about 20% of men, it can reduce libido.
A recent NCI study found that "Finasteride provides a substantial reduction in PC through 16 years of follow-up."
I have posted on most otc supplements that have a PCa literature on PubMed. None are cures. My aim is to slow the cancer. Many of us think in terms of management, rather than cure.
But what would I have done 15+ years ago when a nodule was detected by DRE, knowing what I know now?
1] I would get a hormone profile. Primarily testosterone [T], dihydrotestosterone [DHT] & estradiol [E2].
Men with PCa tend to have lower T, & those with the lowest T have a worse prognosis. [3] While Dr. Morgentaler would have no problem correcting for low T, most doctors are reluctant to prescribe T for men with PCa or suspected PCa.
Some men with PCa overproduce DHT, & this would be reason enough to ask for the 5ARi Avodart (Dutasteride) which is now a generic. It blocks the conversion of T to DHT.
While 5ARi PCa prevention studies noted a reduction in PCa rates, this occurred only for lesser cancer. In fact, studies seemed to show an increase in Gleason score 8-10. This appears to have been due to detection bias, but one would not use a 5ARi in the expectation of avoiding high-grade PCa.
{"5-ARIs have ... been examined in prostate cancer chemoprevention. The Prostate Cancer Prevention Trial (PCPT) study showed a reduction in the incidence of for-cause prostate cancer of 24.8% in normal men treated with finasteride after 7 years. The REduction by DUtasteride of prostate Cancer Events (REDUCE) trial demonstrated that dutasteride significantly reduced the incidence of protocol-mandated biopsy-detectable prostate cancer by 22.8% compared to placebo after 4 years in a biopsy negative at-risk population. While these studies showed a decrease in incidence of overall prostate cancers in men administered dutasteride or finasteride over placebo, there was an increased incidence of Gleason grade 8–10 in patients taking dutasteride, and an increased incidence of Gleason 7–10 in patients taking finasteride. Dutasteride treatment in REDUCE yielded an absolute increase of 0.3% in the incidence of grade 8–10 prostate cancers compared to placebo, using the classical Gleason scoring system,8 and 0.5% using the modified Gleason scores. In PCPT, a statistically significant higher incidence of grade 8–10 cancers was seen in the finasteride group over the placebo overall (... relative risk 1.70 ...).} [1]
High grade PIN [HGPIN] is considered to be a precursor of PCa:
"Dutasteride 0.5 mg for 3 years did not lower the PCa detection rate but did not worsen detected PCa characteristics in men with HGPIN."
IMO, DHT does not drive PCa at the early stages. The response to DHT in a prostate cell, is production of an enzyme that breaks down DHT. One of the metabolites of DHT is a hormone that binds to the beta estrogen receptor [ERbeta] & actively resists cell division. Ultimately, PCa silences ERbeta - which means that DHT no longer has a protective role, & might as well be blocked with Avodart.
Estradiol [E2] should be in the 20-30 pg/mL range. Higher levels are a problem IMO, particularly so if T is low. Since E2 is produced from T, & Arimidex inhibits the conversion, it might be considered as a corrective.
I would get standard measures of inflammation tested. I have a series of posts on this, but a basic approach would be to check albumin & C-reactive protein [CRP]. IMO, albumin <4.0 is a serious issue, & one should aim for 4.5. CRP should be very close to zero (don't go by the observed range, since subclinical inflammation is very common).
PCa is an inflammatory disease. Control of inflammation is essential for slowing progression.
The Life Extension PCa protocol of 14-15 years ago included 40 mg melatonin. LEF was selling 10 mg tablets at that point (still does), but no-one else was. A number of brands now offer 10mg doses, & you can even find 20mg.
At some stage, LEF increased the protocol to 50mg.
For me, melatonin is absolutely not a sleeping pill. I am awake & alert well before 5am each morning. Target tissue does not have an endocrine feedback mechanism. Instead, the melatonin receptors become insensitive to it. A higher dose should speed that up, making it less likely to have a residual effect in the morning.
I take it before sleep.
The thing that impressed me - years ago now - is that it inhibits the AR from getting to the nucleus. What's more, it can cause the AR to be expelled from the nucleus. In theory, my PCa cells can't divide while I am sleeping! LOL
If a substance has not been been tested under FDA standards of rigor to do something, there is no basis to credibly believe it does anything based upon anecdotal stories... however sincere.
And that doesn't even address the issue of drug interactions... and side effects.
Relying on internet reported anecdotal "evidence" is no different than relying on your lucky rabbit's foot. How lucky was it for the rabbit?
How true is this! I really feel like I've succumbed to the snakeoils of the world. An old girlfriend put it very succinctly one day - "If you could lose weight by taking a pill, everyone would have the perfect body"
Don’t trust the Avadart,it will artificially lower your PSA while the cancer grows, I was on Avadart for 6 years to lower the PSA saw the doctor every 6 months,started a slow rise in PSA in April , August had Stage 4 prostate cancer.
Avodart is approved for BPH, & will lower PSA related to BPH without lowering PSA caused by serious PCa. A drop in total PSA can therefore be misleading.
Some men have PCa that does not produce much PSA. When my nodule was found, my PSA was only 0.8. If Avodart, by reducing BPH PSA, were to bring PSA below 4.0, say, a doctor might think there was nothing to worry about.
the PSA era is ~30 years old, & we still haven't migrated to a panel test (which includes PSA), such as the 4Kscore. Some men fall through the cracks.
Avodart lowers PSA due to BPH, but does not lower the PSA due to prostate cancer. Therefore, it makes the PSA test a better diagnostic tool for detecting PC. If the PSA does not go down after taking it, or if it goes down but then rises, cancer is suspected.
My husband has advanced prostate cancer.. neuro-endocrine variant. From reading through the posts listed on this forum and consulting with an integrative doctor.. In addition to the supplements listed by Nalakrats and Pjoshea13 posts I have him taking Modified Citrus Pectin(MCP) - We use EcoNugenics PectaSol MCP. I shop around..but lately Amazon has the best price. Dr Greger on NutritionFacts.org talks about how Flaxseeds help prostate cancer ... so I add 3 Tablespoons of freshly ground flaxseed to his smoothie every day. He is also taking BIRM .. I have talked about this in other posts. He takes 2 Beta Glucans... I think pjoshea13 talked about one in a post by Oriveda - their Turkey Tail.. and I give him one from Better Way Health - Transfer Point Beta Glucan - this one was recommended by the integrative doctor..I buy this one in bulk and it makes it a lot cheaper.. and give it to myself the older children. I am not sure you really need 2 Beta Glucans... Probably start with the Turkey Tail and see if it helps.
I suggest eating as healthy as you can. Switch to as much organic food as possible and load on the fruits and vegetables. Try to cut down on processed food and fast food. My husband switched to a plant based diet. Some of the doctors that we have talked to recommended this and some said that it was ok to have cold water wild caught fish. (Not easy to find good fish in the desert!) We also juice. No matter what you decide to eat... try to load your body with nutrients.. I definitely believe it helped my husband get through chemo.
I bought my husband and ozone sauna and he loves it. It is a steam sauna that has an ozone generator attached. He took ozone saunas at a local spa in Santa Fe for a while before he said it was ok for me to get one. I am not sure if it helps with the cancer but since it made him feel great that was good enough for me. It is easy to install and does not require any plumbing connection. Your head sticks out because you should not inhale ozone. If you buy an extra tank, regulator and mask.. you can breath oxygen in while taking the sauna...sort of your own oxygen bar. Longevity sells the equipment.. they are ok to deal with..
I think the saunas also really helped him get through chemo. Good Luck. Tons of hugs and prayers.
Been vegetarian most of my life actually. But I still eat like crap (pizza, fries, etc etc). I've recently started a different diet, more natural and lower on the glycemic index. So hopefully that will help.
The ozone sauna is unfortunately not going to be viable for me, though I did read of someone else who used that treatment and she's doing well now. I will look into MCN.
How is your husband doing these days and with the supplements?
I think one of the important parts of sauna is good old fashioned sweating. At the time we got it he had a hip fracture from the tumor(This was how the cancer was discovered) So he was not very mobile. Getting some good sweating in through exercise might help as much as the sauna.
Don't forget about gut health. They say it is a big part of your immune system. I have recentlly learned about something called Restore... it is supposed to help your gut. Amazon sells it. I am not sure what to make of it.. some folks seem to love it and some do not.
My husband already takes Aloe Vera Juice everyday and a really good probiotic. I add these to his morning smoothie.
Sprouts are really easy to make and inexpensive too.. I always have these for my husband's salads. They have a lot of good nutrients too.
My husband's last scan was good and his PSA is undetectable.. his chromagranin score is in the normal range. I have been trying to reduce some of the supplements.
Last year at this time I had to buy my husband a walker. This year he was able to hide the eggs for the easter egg hunt and did not need a walker or cane. I am so happy with how things are going.
I read that some supplements can cause the cancer to progress faster, I was taking , fish oil for my cholesterol and I was told not to take while I was doing the radiation. the only thing I did take was Apricot seeds, I did so much research on it and have been taking it since Nov. of last year , I did have radiation treatments and the hormone therapy shot but I am done with all that and my psa is .1 and has been at that for two psa tests. do the research on Apricot seeds. there are pros and cons about it. I do believe it did help me get rid of the cancer along with the doctor's treatments of radiation and the hormone shot.
Apricot seeds or laetrile are very high in cyanide. You may be killing yourself along with the cancer. There is no evidence that it does anything for prostate cancer.
you have to consume >40 apricot seeds at one time, to make it to the ER, but you will not die...antidote is sodium thiosulfate, IV. RECOMMENDATION IS TO ONLY CONSUME NO MORE THAN 10 SEEDS AT ONE TIME, AND 40 FOR A DAY, SEPARATED BY 4-6 HOURS.
BTW, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE CONVENTIONAL PROTOCOLS DO ANYTHING FOR PCA.. AS WELL.
Thanks to everyone responding to this post. You may not know it, but your comments are really helping in terms of helping me keep my mental sanity intact. I am sure many others feel the same way about this forum, but I really did want to tip my hats off to the folks commenting and offering their feedback and experiences. It really helps someone who is new to this disease, who is feeling lost and alone.
I wanted to list some of the things I am looking at, I am trying to investigate everything thoroughly - the last thing I want to do is take something that has no positive effect but brings with it a new set of problems. Additionally, it may be helpful for someone else perusing the forums. Do note, many things are anecdotal, though some have clinical research associated with them
1) IP6 - some others on another site have said good things about this, with observed reduction in cysts/tumors and metastasis. Though I believe this is very dosage and time dependent. One person stated he took about 12 scoops a day (of IP6 Gold, approx 36 grams) for his very advanced condition. There have been some reports of anemia, toothache and GI bleeding
2) Beta glucan - seems worth a try, therapeutic dosage seems to be 500mg per 50 lbs of body weight. I ordered the Transfer point Beta Glucan
3) Curcumin - I keep coming across this, many health benefit claims. I ordered Doctors Best BCM 95 1000mg tablets. I've decided NOT to take this. Upon additional research, it should not be taken if you have gallstones, which I have
4) Selenium - forgot the exact reason, but decided not to take this either due to a side effect concern. Also noted on Prostate.net that Selenium did not help with PCa and was not recommended
The following are supplements I am still looking into. After about doing research for about 8-10 hours a day for the last 4 days, I still have so much to cover.
a) Resveratol
b) Lycophene
c) AHCC
d) Milk Thistle
e) I3C and DIM
f) Finestride / Duestride - will talk to my doctor about these, but what Pjoshea has posted made me nervous about it possibly causing PCa to move higher on the gleason scale
g) Adding MCN and Apricot Seed for research. I've come across Apricot Seed several times now - I believe it was under another food, that somehow got banned in the US and then returned but in a pasturezied ineffective version. I am trying to remember what this was, but I believe Apricot seeds and this other item that was banned was the main source
You misunderstood. Finasteride/Dutasteride, because it reduces the SIZE of the prostate, increases the DETECTABILITY of high grade cancer on biopsy. it doesn't promote high grade cancer, it only makes it easier to find. It does prevent low grade PC - the ONLY substance with actual high level proof of efficacy:
Avoid apricot seeds! The supplement manufacturers are thrilled by people like you who are panicked enough to put anything in their bodies in spite of a lack of evidence.
Thanks for the clarification. I’ll talk to my doc about it too and see what he says.
I did preliminary research on Apricot seeds, (vitamin b17) aka Laetrile, and it scared the hell out of me. Not 100% sure what’s true and what’s not, but not taking the risk right now
you should be scared of conventional chemo for any cancer, and don't forget the cost of chemo, if you don't have insurance... positively immoral! $42000 for 1 month for some chemo's...
Some research has led to debates as to whether statins can reduce the risk of developing prostate cancer or help slow down the progression of advanced prostate cancer. Doctors seem eager to prescribe it for cardiovascular health so it might be worth taking if you are not already on it.
If you are hungry for more I have some websites that get into the strange treatments. However, here are a few I have tried: Vitamin D3, selenium plus vitamin e, and Essaic tea.
Patrick and Nal, am I correct that both of you see benefit for a stage 4 patient on Lupron/Zytiga with cancer currently well controlled in also taking Avodart? I am interested in everything that will delay the onset of castrate resistance. Thanks so much for your ongoing contributions.
We are following almost the exact same as softwaremom00- No sauna- my husband works out and sweats 4 times a week. Highly recommend milk thistle esp during treatments to keep liver numbers good. My husband is an all plant based vegan (although our integrative MD says its okay to have things like turkey on Thanksgiving- and not to stress if something slips in his food- enjoy), loads of greens, we also grow sprouts, garlic, leeks, onion, beets...he takes various supplements or they're in his foods- beta glucan reservatol, curcumin with pepper, polyphenols and plant sterols, graviola, D...plus vitamins/minerals and lots of protein.
We know all of it won't "cure" him but our goal is to keep his body as healthy as possible and his immune system strong. We pass everything by his MO to make sure it's ok with treatments. He did really well with chemo- only side effect was weak nails. Kept his weight and energy steady. He was diagnosed in Aug at age 49 with Gleason 9, tiny mets in spine, pelvic lymph, and neck of bladder. He is in no pain and continues life "as usual".
Stress is not good either- so we try to do a lot with our kids, take walks...
I'd tell you to enjoy your life- definitely try to do what you can to live as healthy as you can so your body has every possible advantage- and keep up with current research. They come farther and learn more each hour it seems! But enjoy your life. It's a gift to be able to take a step back and realize it's the only one you have- so enjoy it.
There is no clear path to prevention or risk reduction. But any path, whatever treatments or not are included, ought to have healthy eating. If you are not already reducing added sugar, eating more plant-based foods, reducing red meat and deep-fried, you need to consider that. Getting or staying physically active helps too. Many studies show this. I like detox as well, and believe in the use of dietary supplements. I founded Annie Appleseed Project to share the evidence around natural medicine and its many paths to wellness. I am a 25 year breast cancer survivor who could not take chemo in Jan 1993 and had to find a way through.
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