CTC RESULTS ARE IN, INCONCLUSIVE DETERMINATIONS

Those that are following me, I have received the results, of my circulating tumor cells. To recap, I have been on my ADT-5 program, with a serious supplemental program for a year and a half. My PSA has been undetectable for 15 months, after having a post-op PSA of 7.4, going into surgery at 20.2. So it was considered I failed surgery, could not have radiation, or Chemo, and the Oncologists at the time concluded that I had micro-metastasis, and the Pca escaped probably before surgery. Because the nodes were clean, yet I had a positive margin, the perineural nerve was infected, and one seminal vesicle.

OK, so we started ADT, Lupron implant, just exchanged one out last week, Casodex, Avodart, Proscar, and DIM. Got to undetectable fast. And I was targeting, both refractive cells, and hormone sensitive cells with my 10 step supplemental program, of which I have written of. So I had been told a second time last week by my Urologist, that he expected me to be in Hospice this year, due to my Pathology and Gleason.

So, about a month ago, I contacted my Geneticist and it was suggested, if everyone thinks the Pca is circulating in my blood then lets measure what is there. So the CTC test was done.

The test is the CellSearch Method, approved by the FDA, and has a Medicare code. The purpose was to measure what was not dormant or asleep, because you cannot stain those Pca cells that even though sensitive to ADT, if sleeping, they cannot be measured. So the literature on my Pathology is that it usually breaks 70-30, with PSA Sensitive Cells at 70 % and the Refractive Cells at 30%. So if every cancer cell was in my blood, I would take the count of Circulating Cells and multiply by 1.7 to account for the Pca cells asleep, or dormant.

Well Hells Bells, the test came back ZERO Cancer Cells in my blood. My Urologist looked at me and asked, are you cured? I said I need a lot of consultation on these results. I see my Oncologist at the Levine Cancer Institute in Charlotte N.C. tomorrow.

He has only ever done one CTC test since it has been available. So I consult with him. My proposed suggestion, is to pick a very sensitive Scan, that can locate Cancer cells. Can I take a Vacation, I do not wish to experiment unless I have more facts,

So as of today I have 3 ZEROS-----PSA, C-Reactive Protein, and Circulating Tumor Cells.

Anyone have any suggestions besides doing a very sensitive scan? It could be everyone was wrong about the initial diagnosis of Micro-metastasis in the blood. Could be that the cancer never left the Prostate Bed. Feel free to comment.

Nalakrats

44 Replies

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  • This might provide some "food for thought" to chew on, particularly the parts about the sensitivities of detections at the very lowest range of PSA levels:

    sciencedirect.com/science/a...

    Charles

  • I am more concerned about the refractive Stem cells than those that produce a PSA. I have measure off at less than 0.03, for a long time. If I had any kind of active cells in the blood they would have been found, by the CTC test---this test is very sensitive, they tell me

    Nalakrats

  • Nice work from down under.

  • With Doc's today--they still think I have micro-metastasis, which cannot be found, by any scan, but they are asleep, or hiding, but have not agglomerated anywhere. Going to to CT and Bone Scans, anyway. But everyone expects nothing. So I stay the course for now.

    Nalakrats

  • Amazing and so happy for you Nal! You are adding to my arsenal of knowledge, and given our IDC-P affiliation, I may very well need to know these things So thank you, and congrats and hopeful for you.

    I have an eventful week. I have another biopsy to determine stage of my newly diagnosed thyroid cancer. Then I have my ART VSim on Tuesday. On Wed I start radiation. Thursday I see my endocrinologist to see if surgery can wait until after the eight weeks of ART. Never a dull moment!

  • May God Bless you with Great outcomes.

    Nalakrats

  • Wow Nal, I am so hopeful that this is as positive for you as it seems!

  • In the head scratching mode. Seeing Head of Prostate Cancer Research at the Levine Institute today. More info to come I hope.

    Nalakrats

  • Take the vacation as soon as you can. You deserve it. Drs go by their stats and if do only what they say and no more you might just fit into those stats. You can't believe everything that you hear. They are human, and fallable just like us. Hope it's all good news for you.

  • Excellent point Lulu. Nal certainly wouldn't fit into the stats. as with most on this site. I told this to one of my oncologist once and he went dead silient. What could he say. Iam a statistic of one and take the time and treat M e as such thank you. Rocco

  • Good luck. Praying for you. A cure for you is a cure for all of us 👍

  • It is a possibility. Will see my Oncologist today. Have to drive 2 hours to the Levine Cancer Institute. His input is important today. Thanks, Egerdes.

    Nalakrats

  • Nothing to contribute except my thanks for the knowledge and happiness for your results so far. You are an inspiration.

  • Thanks, Still concerned if the Bastard cells are somewhere. Will be at the Levine Cancer Institute to discuss what we might do next.

    Nalakrats

  • Congrads. Hope you continue to do well. What was your Gleason ?

  • Gleason was 9, PSA before surgery was 20.2

    Nalakrats

  • Hi Nalakrats,

    That must be a relief!

    What is the plan if a scan finds something?

    How likely is it, given the technology, that a scan will unequivocally detect cancer in your case?

    I'm not surprised that no CTCs were found. The nattokinase you take would degrade circulating microclots. The body is good at zapping free circulating cancer cells. Your undetectable PSA suggests that you wouldn't be throwing any quantity of cells into the blood.

    -Patrick

  • Concern going into this before the test was to find the Refractive Cells. Head of Prostate Research, at Levine and I have a meeting this afternoon in Charlotte. I will suggest a scan of some type, vacation, and intermittent ADT. Would not stop supplemental program, if on any type vacation. I purposely had this meeting set up to follow the CTC Results, total Blood Work completed, and nothing out of range, zero C-reactive protein. last weeks T and PSA still at Undetectable and T well into Castrate Range, plus added 25 % increase in DIM. E2 not measured last week. Have not been on extra DIM, long enough, to see if I went from 20 towards, 15 as to E2,

    Lots of head scratching. Thanks for response. Told Donaldson, you might be coming. He has 2 weeks of vacation, coming in July. He was also confused with the CTC results.

    Nalakrats

  • Congrats on zero CTC!!!

    Your urologist stated you will be in hospice within year despite undetectable PSA and no CTC--even given your prior history. I don't see the basis for that forecast? Did I understand correctly?

    In terms of scans, at undetectable, how wold even qualify for scans? However, assuming you could choose any scan, perhaps the PSMA scan might have the best chance, as even micro Pca cells should show given these cells should have PSMA receptors.

    In terms of an ADT holiday, perhaps just taking DIM and other supplements ( you know I am relatively new at this site-can u just list supplements again or where can see) and with monthly PSA you can immediately stop ADT vacation to stop PCa from gaining any real ground.

    Wishing you much luck, you deserve good outcomes.

  • Kind of complicated---there are no scans that can detect what I might have left, which is Micro-Metastasis--My Oncologist said today, I qualify for the standard Bone and CT scan for Medicare---and based on my history they need a square centimeter of a cluster of cells, for even a Choline Acetate Scan to find anything, and a square centimeter, would be 100 million cells, in one spot. I do not know if he meant that number, or was trying to impress me that a Square Centimeter would be a lot of Cancer, and you need that much to be able to pick it up.

    So the suggestion is to stay the course--get more time under my belt. Know more in 90 days--my Oncologist is one smart dude--Head of Prostate Research, and Clinical Trials, at the Levine Cancer Institute. I can stay with him about 80% of the time, and he can only stay with me about 80% of the time when I am on supplements. I gave him a new one to follow today, last visit, I gave him 2 protocols to try. He takes notes, and I take notes---we have a good one on one relationship.

    Nalakrats

  • Great news . Really appreciate all your research and info imparted to us on this site . Perhaps it's your faith and prayers at work ? ( including the ones I lift up for all of us on this site ) . I can only add that my oncologist at Sloan Kettering , who happens to be Dr Yu Chen , has told me that there are several men with Stage IV disease that have remained on Lupron for at least 20 years without advancement of their disease from both a serology or bone/CT scan perspective . I will attempt to question him for further information regarding specifics - he did state casually that he thought it was just the DNA of their PCa - but back then they weren't doing genetic testing so I took it as his opinion .

  • Thanks, Prayer does not just help, but can cause miracles. As a brother of faith, I say back to you God Bless in Yeshua's Name. I am aware of Chen, he is a top 10 Pick, as to Pca. My oncologist today still believes I have micro-mets, that cannot be detected by scan, as they have not agglomerated anywhere. Those asleep, we cannot pick up, and the Stem Cells, are not sticking together anywhere. So they are not showing themselves, they are definitely not in the Blood. The CTC blood test proved that. So I stay the course, and will get more time under my belt. At some point, if I remain the same as to standard testing, I have to have faith, and step out.

    Nalakrats

  • That's just too cool. Now if you have all zeroes, can there be sleeping cells? Or can there be no sleeping cells, without active cells. And, is there a scan that can detect these cells? I mean as they flow through your body? Or is it under a microscope of sorts?

    Last month was the first time I ever heard of micro-mets, and now they may be debunked already. That's me alright, always the last to know.

    Joe

  • No Joe, My Oncologist today, suggests that I have micro-mets, and whatever I have is not registering. As to stem cells, they are not in the blood and also not accumulating anywhere, and you need a Square Centimeter, to be able to register, on any scan. So I can be anywhere from cured, to having a 100 million micro-metastatic cells dispersed somewhere, as with no PSA, no CTC's, no pain anywhere, and the only thing we can do is make me happy by scanning nodes and body with a CT, and doing a bone scan. The most sensitive scanning Equipment today cannot find micro-mets, as they have to accumulate somewhere, and I take things that should not allow them to stick together. So I stay the course is the Oncologists suggestion. I can handle the ADT effects, so I can do another year or 2 if need be. After awhile there has to be a decision to stop and see if anything is around. They cannot live forever in a dormant state.

    Nalakrats

  • As in all of science absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That the test, at its current sensitivity, can detect no circulating cells within the sample provided for testing and analysis, means only that. At some unknown sensitivity and in the entire body might there be tumor cells? My belief is the answer is yes. Nonetheless take the opportunity to find relief and satisfaction wherever it may be.

  • Met with the head of Prostate Cancer Trials, and Prostate Cancer research. He is of the same opinion as yourself. But we say it differently. I have micro-mets, they have not accumulated anywhere in one spot. Those asleep, and circulating do not fluoresce. They are the Hormone Sensitive part of the Cancer. The Stem cell part, is not in the blood or we would have caught them. A square centimeter, is a 100 million cells. So we do not know where anything is hiding. So the Oncologist prefers I stay the course I am on. Scanning will find nothing, he says. That there in no know scan available today that can find singular cells. I take 2 substances, that in theory, in Vivo, and in Vitro, do not allow for agglomeration, or transportation, of a group of cells. Maybe it is working for me. Time will tell, but your analysis is correct. There are still tumor cells--but where?

    Nalakrats

  • Nal, congrats on those encouraging results. I had negative scans for my gleason 8. I was on ADT (six month dose) and then had HIFU a couple of months into ADT. I decided to take an ADT vacation -- I felt like it was the only way to determine how well the surgery went. So far so good. I expect that you will be supporting everyone here even when it is apparent that you are in durable remisision, as I hope to be.

  • Do not know yet. The Docs, are calling it a remission, as to durable, they do not wish to make that claim. Because of the Crazy Pathology of Ductal Cribriform, and that after Surgery, I still had a load of cancer left, but not seen by scans, with a PSA of 7.4, Like I did not have surgery, the PSA was that high.

    Nalakrats

  • ? PSMA either for imaging, or for targeted therapy?

    mskcc.org/research-areas/la...

  • We discussed this--there is a nano collecting CTC procedure, that is not paid for by Medicare, and can catch any cancer cell including those dormant, based on the size of the Cancer Cell, verses blood cells. It is basically a molecular sieve. But my Doc today said there is no guarantee where anything is, including the fact I may have wiped out a whole bunch. I am not in a position to spend excessively to prove something, or nothing. I will let things go, for a while more. If I can maintain my undetected PSA status, another year, the best way to determine things is to stop my ADT, program, but keep my supplemental program, let the T rise, but I would still maintain my 5-alpha reductase drugs, and my anti-aromatase supplement. If that holds, I can then remove the 5AR, and see how that goes, while doing 30 day PSA's I have not suggested this to Docs. But thinking in this realm. This would prove a lot.

    Nalakrats

  • As martingugino also suggested, psma scan as a possibility as it tags to Pca psma receptors and the more aggressive Pca have more psma receptors. Other cells with psma, including healthy prostate or other non Pca cells much smaller number psma receptors. You may have addressed, if so I apologize, but I didn't notice it.

  • No You guys know more about these scan than I do. I am archiving for further study.

    Thanks

    Nalakrats

  • I meant scans

  • Nal, if you click that arrow down button on your post, you'll be able to edit it.

  • Nalakrats,

    Why were you not initially a candidate for chemo?

    Rich

  • It was not offered and I did not want it, based on previous health conditions. All agreed to try ADT.

    Nalakrats

  • I would like your expertise. Do you think it is worthwhile to take a daily resveratrol complex? If so, what kind and dosage.

    Rich

  • As you know Big Rich, resveratrol, is found naturally in Red Grapes, Purple Grapes, Cranberries, Blueberries, and Mulberries.

    The lab trials, over the years show some positive results against Pca cells in petri dishes, and the tests in nude mice are marginal, based on the poor bio-availability of the polyphenols, that are part of the resveratrol extracts. Some research, indicate the human body can only take in 0.5% relative to Bio-availability. So most standard supplements can be a waste of money.

    Now I am a fan of any polyphenol that I can get into my blood. "Look for products that claim, micro-encapsulation, of resveratrol". This allows a much higher bio-availability, up to 70%.

    I personally favor Muscadine Grape Extract, which would obviously give many of the polyphenols that are in resveratrol. Read on Google: Muscadine Grape and Prostate Cancer---there is an up-dated paper from 2017. So in conclusion I expect resveratrol, is positive, if you can get enough of it into your blood, and not pass it down the poop slide. Micro encapsulation helps.

    Nalakrats

  • Nalakrats,

    Where can I purchase this product?

    Rich

  • Try MegaResveratrol.com. I believe they have a few different strengths, and are micro-encapsulated, and 99% pharmaceutical grade. Best I know of, as of today.

    Nalakrats

  • Nalakrats,

    Than you, I am going to purchase. I read that resveratrol cuts in one study estoriol by 45%. Thereis no correlation between spelling and intelligence. I like Earnest Hemingway am a terrible speller.

    Rich

  • Glad to hear the very positive news. What is most important is that you are a fighter. You do not go "gently into that good night." You have inspired me and many others with your knowledge and bulldog determination.

  • Thanks, have my fatigues on and my AR-15, has a 30 round clip in ready to go.

    Nalakrats

  • Suggest you add 50 cal marine sniper rifle so you can hit what you want , where you want-it's not always how much but how accurate

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