Any Update Comments Regarding those using BIRM

I personally have about 2 months into its use. I did not recommend anyone to use, as is my usual way of discussing supplements. But, I am aware there are some here using BIRM. Question is are there any reports that are verifiable by test results, such as PSA, or physical awareness of overall increased feelings of energy, or well being, however that may be described, as well as for example reduced pain. Of course only blood tests are more verifiable. Anything else is subjective.

I had my Blood Draw finally today, for my CTC blood test. Had to wait for special blood tubes to be delivered to Quest Diagnostics. My blood will go to Atlanta to a lab, that adds something, then goes to another lab in Virginia, where I believe they do the staining to make the cancer cells stand out, and are then counted by a computer.

So I am told it might take 2 weeks to get results. Since I have no Baseline, we are starting in the middle, but should be able to extrapolate from counted cells[Stem Cancer], to figure the amount, that is in blood, that are Hormone sensitive. Hope the data is rich enough to report something viable here. But, I am interested in those using BIRM, to comment.

Nalakrats

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  • Nalakrats,

    I've been on it only 6 weeks. But, two things were dramatic, if I could use that word. The brain fog is gone, and my energy levels are much improved. I'm only taking a single dose in the morning, mainly because I forget to take it at night. I'll have PSA results on Friday.

    Joe

  • Maybe all the brain fog is not gone[Ha]. I have my PSA blood draw tomorrow, if still undetectable--I will have no new data. I am hoping my CTC blood test which will take about 2 weeks for the result, will provide an answer. AS you and I acknowledge, that about 30% of the cancer cells we have are refractive/stem cells.

    And can be measured, if in the blood. And all my Docs. say my Pca, is floating in the blood--that is if they are right. So if I.E. my CTC cell count is 3, you multiply that number by 1.70, and that should approximate the total Pca cell count[5], because sleeping/Dormant cells do not stain with a reagent to be counted by the counting computer. And 5 per 7.5 Mls of blood is borderline for long term survival. You need to be under 5. 1 or 2 would be a great number, and would give me confidence, that I can take an ADT vacation. Because people without Cancer will register, a 1, or 2--as everyone has cancer cells floating in their blood, but they are controlled by their immune system. The ones mutated, where DNA, repair is prevented, by the mutation, does not allow for DNA repair to offset, Pca cells.

    Hope I did not lose you. When I get my CTC test back, I will be able to evaluate it here, and, it will have meaning especially for those with Ductal, and intraductal, Pca, with low or undetectable, PSA's.

    Nalakrats

  • I kinda sorta got it. I consider myself to be pretty smart, (I had the highest IQ in my sixth grade class, you see) but with no college level, unless you call my service time schooling, and being an instructor. Not to be confused with a teacher. That's beside the point, The thing is, I never had reached a 0 PSA, the lowest I got was around 1, and last month it was 1.7. So, I'm hoping for at least no change, or a drop.

    Joe

  • my lowest psa was 2.9 ,that was 2 years in,Last week was my 11 year anniversary, slowly crept up from 2.9 ,last one was 73 . 7 chemo today ,psa results tomorrow, inintial labs all good and alk phos indicating activity in bone has continued lower from being out of range before first chemo is now at lower end of normal.

  • Here's my experience w/ CTC count using CellSearch CTC kit for CTCs (sent to LabCorp): Ran the test 5 times between 7/31/12 and 1/6/14. My PSA was rising in this period (0.13 at start, 0.41 at end of this period). My GS = 9. All five CTC results showed 0 CTCs. My conclusion was that CTCs are affected by multiple factors, some of which may not yet be understood.

    Dave

  • This would indicate to me that you may not have stem cells, that do not give off a PSA in your blood--they are somewhere else. The Pca cells if in the blood should have been picked up, those that were not dormant or sleeping. If the test is true to picking up Cells in the blood, yours may be back in the prostate bed. In my case all Docs. are saying I have micro-metastasis cells circulating in my blood--because I have clean scans, and an undetectable PSA, which would mean the ones that give off a PSA reading are asleep, and we should find the Stem cells, in the blood, if not then they too must be back in my prostate bed.

    Because after surgery, I had one of the highest post surgery PSA's seen. It was 7.4, as if I did not have surgery. So I had a lot a Pca cells. Before surgery I was 20+ on PSA. So where are all of these cells.

    So we will see, what I get. Thanks for your response.

    Nalakrats

  • I posted earlier that my psa was 12+ on February 23rd. 10 days ago it was 3.6. I started taking BIRM on April 27. I cannot say the decrease was entirely from BIRM. I will know when I get the next psa as I stopped using another treat that may have dropped the psa

  • Wishing you much luck with this. I will be asking my doc about taking both BIRM and CTC test.

    I spoke to Guardant geneticist re CTC vs their 360 genomic test. They magnify the nucleus DNA material and sequence DNA. She said directly counting the cells directly is tricky to get accurately-real small, they decided to not go there market wise. Also, no ARV7 test which deals with problem with messenger RNA and its instructions to the protein involved

    Know you're busy now, when you have a chance would like to obtain and understand those equations you are using to do the extrapolation process.

    Again, good luck

  • The cancer cells light up when stained with a reagent--and the computer can count them---size is of no concern, and my understanding is that cancer cells, are bigger than blood cells, that is why Nanotechnology counting is also done as a CTC method, as it captures the larger cells letting the blood to go by. But this test is outside of an affordability range--and the CellSearch method, I am using has a Medicare Code.

    Nalakrats

  • Thanks! Having a Medicare code is important. Do you have one of your helpful links (i.e., 1.7 factor) to the background of underlying math of extrapolation process, when you have time?

    Interesting, 1.7 to gross up for non staining sleeping/dormant Pca cells. So, non sleeping CTC includes all non sleeping/dormant cells, including neg Pca cells and ARV7 mutated cells, if any.

    Wonder, if combine views from CTC , Guardant360, and ArV7 blood tests, would get pretty good understanding of what's happening real time.

    Actually, once available generally. The PSMA scan, would add location those hot spots too small to see with even choline and Auxmin scans, I understand

  • Well we are going with the published data ---ONLY--on those with Ductal or Intraductal Pathologies. So there are many other pathologies, that will give a different ratio, between refractive Pca cells, and those that react to Hormone deprivation. So pathology studies on these rare forms, that like I have, there is enough agreement, when studying these pathologies, that upon DX, the ratio is 30% refractive cells, to 70% hormone sensitive cells. So what we count will only be refractive cells, as all my others are undetectable or sleeping/dormant. So there is just the mathematical uncertainty, but all we have is take the CTC count and multiply by 1.70---to estimate the total. It is a crap shoot. But if they cannot find any stem cells/refractive cells. Then I might be able to come off ADT, and do active surveillance, every 30 days. What I am doing does not work for everybody---just a few. There are nanotechnology CTC tests that catch everything, but cannot afford, and not Medicare approved.

    Nalakrats

  • Most Docs. will have not heard of BIRM--as it just got approval for funding research, by the NIH. I would go to Google, and copy off the Papers, and articles on it, and take to the Doctor. Whenever I get into a new thing, I bring literature to my visits, with Doctors. Remember Oncologists treat all cancers, and are overwhelmed with keeping up with 100 new publications a week.

    That is why we need our doctors/Oncologists to specialize in Pca. I have 2.

    Nalakrats

  • Thanks Nalakrats

  • Naladrats,

    I've been usingBIRMfor 5 weeks and it has improved my energy level considerably. The Trelstar and Xtandi were taking there toll, but after about 2 weeks my energy returned. I know you didn't recommend, but thank your for "exposing".

    Regards,

    JPD7

  • Well exposing and me not recommending, is a signal for those here to investigate. If I am exposing, you can almost bet I am using, or about to. I have about 8 weeks, and all I can report the same as you---more energy, and not dying for an afternoon nap. But believe planned napping, is good for us, if we can fall asleep. If I do not I meditate.

    So all reports so far agrees with those who wrote about their experiences on Amazon.

    Nalakrats.

  • Hi Nal,

    Just started 3rd bottle of Birm last week. 3 ml every day twice a day. PSA from early May stayed at .1. Have not noticed an energy increase but I have steadily lost weight through diet as well as taking many PCa fighting supplements so overall I am feeling great. I also am not on any meds so may not be a good test model for energy increase. Next PSA Test in August and hoping for same or reduction. Met with my Hopkins Rad Onc 2 weeks back and he and his RN did not believe in my supplement program. But I was able to get an appointment through him with a Hopkins Med Onc that does research on supplements! Looking forward to that meeting and discussing supplements, Birm and latest STAMPEDE results adding abiraterone to hormone therapy when/if needed. Best wishes.... Moe

  • Please let me know how your blood work turned out since I am thinking of taking BIRM. I have stage 4 prostate cancer and I am currently going through chemo treatments. Also, where did you buy your BIRM? I was looking at Amazon but was wondering what is the best brand. Amazon has a liquid extract product.

    Thanks,

    LP16

  • When having BIRM up on the Amazon site--it is the first one that appears---the one that says Modulator. There is only one BIRM, I believe. I am not advocating, its use, just reporting things. Those in deep stages of their, cancer, find relief of side effects, according to people that are using during Chemo. And it appears, those in stage 4 cancers are using more than the 2 CC's twice a day, and using 3 times a day.

    In Ecuador their is a seven fold BIRM, that you have to get directly from Ecuador, and not available thru Amazon or others. I do not have a lot of info on this seven times stronger product, other than it is about 126 dollars for a bottle, I do not know how long it lasts, or the dosage. But that it is used in very severe situations. Sorry I cannot recommend or point you in a certain direction.

    You could do what I did, was to ask those 55 or so people that gave BIRM, a 5 star, rating, after reading their posts, you can ask, as I did, for people to tell you if their cancer was put into remission, cured, or slowed--however you want to phrase a question, on the Amazon site. I got back, 6 very positive responses. All I have at this point. It will be 2 weeks before I get the blood results--and interpretation, is unknown, what the results will mean. Doctors do not have any more experience than myself, in terms of reading the results. So a bit of a crap shoot.

    Nalakrats

  • I am a 68 year old male with a very small prostate tumour identified by biopsy. I have been taking BIRM Concentrate at 3ml twice a day sine 17 December 2016. My PSA has gone from a (possibly spurious) 17.5 in September 16 that prompted the biopsy to a low now of 3.3. Prior to taking BIRM the PSA had dropped naturally without treatment to 8.5 then 7.3 prior to commencing BIRM.

    Since taking BIRM the PSA has tracked 3 monthly to 3.8, 3.8, 3.3. For my age I am in the acceptable range of less than 4.5. I have discussed this with my urologist who initially wanted me to have brachytherapy and hormone treatment. He now agrees that I should continue with the BIRM and have another MRI in early 2018.

    While relatively expensive it is a lot less than surgical intervention and there is no danger of lifestyle downside as there is with the surgery. Two senior surgeons (not urologists) strongly advised me not to have surgery unless all other options have been discounted. Right now I am happy to rely on BIRM.

  • Kiwi-man how did you find out about BIRM? I first posted on it about 10 weeks ago.

    You have been using it for 6 months. Amazing, there are people out there using BIRM for all kinds of cancer. How you came to know about it is really important to me and others here.

    Nalakrats

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