Protocols For Cycling T, or T use in Metastatic Post ADT

I am looking for those who are cycling T after ADT, or after ADT failed. Or for that matter are using T continually after ADT, and their results, as to PSA control/reduction/rise, What range of Ng/Dl of blood you and your Doctor are shooting for, as to T? Do you monitor Free T? And Obviously by my title, you would have been diagnosed with Metastatic Pca, or and you became castrate resistant. I have read what studies are available, but are few and usually with small numbers of men in a study. I am looking for exacting protocols, the type T being used, Synthetic Injectable, Rub On, nature Identical etc. If you are participating, you know what I am seeking. I am aware of men being undetectable for PSA for 12, 20, 24 months, and then stopping ADT and going on to T, with success[18-30 months]. And I am aware of those who have become Castrate Resistant, and sensitized their Pca cells, and went back on ADT, with success in lowering PSA dramatically. Also if using T, are you using Avodart to slow down/stop the conversion of T to DHT[Known Pca Food].

I know I am asking a lot, and if you prefer not to explain, you might be able to give a Medical Doctor's Reference that can be contacted, who is using T protocols. My Doctor, might want to contact on his and my behalf. Thanks In advance

Nalakrats

45 Replies

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  • Very interesting line of thought, to me anyway. I feel sure that you have seen some of the comments on this. I am starting to think that prostate cancer is caused by low testosterone (in some section of the prostate) and that cancer is the response to low testosterone.

    This could be tested by an autopsy study, it seems to me, looking for previously undetected prostate cancer.

    I may (have to) skip Provenge to be able to take advantage of a Plurixifor study, and then currently hope to find a Testosterone supplementation study, if there is one.

  • Martin---there are studies, and One Urologist wrote a book Testosterone for Life by Dr. Montentaler---Who proved over 20 years that men with Low T tend to get Pca, and they also tend to get more aggressive forms the lower their T is. Low T according to the Doctor, is an indicator-- he would give Biopsies to men with PSA's of 2, or 3 if their T was under 290 Ng/Liter of blood and found men with absolutely clean DRE's and low PSA's actually had Pca. He found about 20% of biopsies were positive, and he saved a lot of lives as these men may not of known they had Pca for a few more years--and were cured, because of the Drs' Theory of low T.

    Get the book---I got it at Amazon for one penny--chapter 7 has it all.

    Nalakrats

  • Public library has it. Saved $.01!

  • Good for you--after chapter 7, look at 4---the rest of the book is stuff I already knew.

    Nalakrats

  • Here are a number of long videos that do discuss patients and blood test results over time that do not consider testosterone to be bad. Lot of work to find the exact data that you want, but I have been watching the "nothing sacred" videos so far. (Dr Bob Leibowitz)

    compassionateoncology.org/v...

  • Leibowitz will say he prefers Proscar to Avodart.

  • Martin there is a Dr. Jeffrey Turner, of Prostate Oncology at Marina Del Ray, who treats patients with high dose T. I am going to try to get my Doctor to talk to Turner--maybe we can get his protocols and results.

    Nalakrats

  • a little after 19 minutes in. I cant allign the video for some reason

    bit.ly/2eoWz7q

  • I will watch the Leibowitz video when things are quiet and I can concentrate. I use Avodart, as recommended by Dr. Charles Snuffy Meyers, the famed Oncologist and Pharmacologist, as it takes out the 2 enzymes that convert T to DHT--where Proscar, only takes out one.

    My Urologist agrees.

    Nalakrats

  • i would have invested in reading this perhaps if i new what T represents at the beginning

  • T is the thing that is at the complete center of prostate cancer mindset: testosterone. I suppose that PSA is actually more central, since people do track PSA without caring too much (apparently) what their testosterone level is, and the golden treatment objective is to drive T to zero. Shut of the prostate cells. Shut of the adrenals. Block any T in the bllod from getting into the prostate cells. Prevent T that has gotting into a prostate cell from being converted into DHT.

    Then you get V7. Oops. And Neuroendocrine disease. Oops. Unless you die because you just run out of gas.

  • Martin--there is new research I am following relative to cholesterol. I have been told my type of pathology once it gets going, by getting around the ADT blockade---will build its own highways[angiogenesis]--then put in its own food factories, and line the streets with McDonalds and Burger Kings.

    Scientifically we know that these bastard cells can make their own testosterone, convert it to DHT, eat all it wants take a nap get up and divide until it kills you.

    Anyway humor aside, what was just discovered at Purdue University, and published October 16th---was how these bastards make testosterone, even when your body has none. Without getting too chemistry heavy here---testosterone is actually a by-product of the esterification of cholesterol. So what these bastard Pca cells do is they take cholesterol into their cell matrix, or eat it, and then esterify it to testosterone, and then they have the food they want as the testosterone breaks down to DHT. so we block the foods T and DHT, and eliminate as much sugar as possible---and what we call a work around arises for the self-survival of the Pca cells, as they become a chemistry lab producing its own testosterone from cholesterol.

    Now the Purdue people, have come up with a drug, who's name is stuck away in my favorites right now, and I do not remember its name. And what this drug does is it prevents Cholesterol from being esterified to Testosterone, inside the Pca cell. Clinical trials have not begun yet as they seek money---but in mice they had massive cell death when they interfered with the cholesterol making ability of the cancer cells, while ADT was in use. So if this works I can see a 4 drug blockade---Lupron, Casodex, Avodart, and this new drug--if it tests out. Things like this can really be fast tracked. I have more--but all for now.

    Nalakrats

  • the structure of the chemicals 2016prostatecancer.blogspot...

    I can see the conversion of T to DHT.

    And cholesterol has the cluster of rings that make it a steroid.

    I am just skeptical I have to say that a prostate cell can make testosterone out of cholesterole. I know people have siad this and many even take credit for having discovered it by themselves, but I find am in no hurry to accept this. Of course, my lack of enthusiasm is partly because of my lack of enthusiasm for the whole program of trying to drive T to zero, even though clearly it is useful to buy some time while you get your affaiirs in order, and before you figure out what the heck you need to do.

  • If you can find the Purdue University publication of Oct. 16th, they lay it out including the drug they developed to prevent the Cancer Cell from making T, from Cholesterol. They are so sure--they are going to Clinical Trial Phase 1.

    Nalakrats

  • hi

    In your post you don't say if you are still castrate or not. I would recommend you listen

    to a speech on youtube given by dr John Lee [approx. 50 mins long] on progesterone.

    Some of his male patients also reported complete reversals of metastatic prostate cancers

    refer to Mercola.com and Roger Mason's site at young again--also has free books for down

    loads. I am trialing progesterone cream and dim [to promote better Estrogen levels] so far

    psa 0.32-- t 23.5 and has been steady for over 2 years also DHT 1.4-- Estrogen 87.

  • 2548--I am /have been undetectable for 5 months now--my pathology could not be any worse--other than small cell--which kills you pretty quickly. So 2548--I am in preparation for the future. I am in study about T cycling--a few doc's are doing it--and the patients are doing pretty well, as the Pca cells get sensitized to T, they are then knocked out with ADT. The theory is if you do this long enough, you wipe them out.

    Thank you very much about the info on your female hormone/progesterone, and DIM[Di-Indole Methane]. I use to get mine from Dr. Zelig in Colorado--his company produces a micro-encapsulated product that gets into your blood stream--Probably the only Anti-Aromatase Natural that works as well as Avodart.

    I will definitely follow up on Mercola and Mason and Lee.

    Basically you are doing ADT--via female hormones--and the use of DIM to act against the bi-product metabolism of progesterone. Thanks again.

    Nalakrats

  • hi again

    The theory of using progesterone is to restore normal hormone balance. As we age testosterone and progesterone levels fall and estrogen levels increase. In our younger years when T is high we don't get prostate cancer, as we age T & P fall--E & DHT increase. I stopped Lupron before becoming permanently castrate so my T is mine and I am trying hormone balancing as Lupron treatment has a very poor quality of life and so far my QOL at 80 years is very good, and as I see it if this works I win.

  • estrogen comes from testosterone and so does dht. i have no idea about progesterone. what role does it play? but why do you say that e and dht increase?

  • Progesterone is specific to women. As I said in my last response--T goes to DHT by the 5-alpha reductase enzymes from the liver--this is normal in the metabolism and elimination of T for new T to take its place. Men have a small amount of estrogen---but as I said in my last note--it is the DHT that gets converted to Estradiol, not Estrogen.

    There is a famed Urologist in Colorado, published by the way at the NIH[Dr. Zelig--Look him up on the Web--he has patients with PSA's from 40-150, who are doing fine, and have been for years. He gives them T, but also large doses of DIM a natural Anti-Aromatase Compound that does not allow the T to convert to the estrogen by-products.

    He is over my head--we spoke by phone and he sent me about 20 pages of his research work--to convince me that halting DHT, and the Estrogen Bi-products such as Estradiol, was key to maintaining a small group of his patients healthy with high PSA's

    Nalakrats

  • 2548--I understand--I had been on T replacement for 23 years--maintaining 680 800 Ng/Dl of blood, I am fully up to speed, on the endocrine gland system, and have been for decades. And an original user of DIM when it became available, but still got Pca. The Theory is simple. And has been written about from The Harvard Medical School. Men who have low T are 4 times more likely to get Pca. The body does not recognize the fact you are supplementing--so even with the Nature Identical T that I was taking for years--my Body considered that I was still Low T.

    Fascinating stuff coming out--that is why I am seeking more info as to cycling. As it gets you off ADT, sensitizes the Pca cells, and then back on ADT to whack some to death. Then back on T, and you continue the process.

    Nalakrats

  • If prostate cells had no androgen receptors (AR), ie no testosterone receptors, would that be a good thing?? Why is the V7 variant bad, since it seems like it acts like an incompetent receptor - testosterone cant bind to it and cant be blocked either. (so if it is just a broken receptor, who cares? that's the goal of treatment anyway, keep testosterone out of the cell.)

    Plus testosterone can enter the cell through osmosis without a special receptor, so the only point of the receptors is to maintain a different concentration of testosterone inside the cell from outside the cell. Like a kind of airlock.

    Then, there are two kinds of receptors the AR-alpha and the AR-beta, with the alpha receptor being the suspect one (as with women and the estrogen receptor - having two, one being bad, and the bad one being called the alpha). What to make of this??

    Or is any of this right?

    The there are the dimer receptors - the adjacent pairs of receptors.... huh?

  • Martin--The food is DHT, not T---every Urologist/Oncologist worth his salt will tell you T does not cause Prostate Cancer. But T naturally goes to DHT by the 5-alpha reductase enzymes coming from the liver. The further breakdown is to mostly 3 estrogen compounds, and one is estradiol, a known breast cancer accelerator/causeator. In 1985-6 Sloan Memorial did a study on cadavers--men who died of prostate cancer and still had their prostate gland. They found in all dead subjects very large amounts of estradiol. Some have postulated the following: That the estradiol caused the prostate cancer, and since it was in such large amounts, it could not come from the small amount of estrogen men naturally have. When back tracing the source--it had to come from Testosterone. Not Testosterone directly but from the 5-alpha reductase enzymes breaking down the T to DHT, and moving on to estradiol.

    So the cancer is now inside the Gland. The T is being converted to DHT food, for the little suckers, and the excess DHT is going to estradiol to kill you. So what does a PSA test measure--is it the protein antigen given off by the Pca cell, or is it fact a measure of the estradiol content in your body. Now Pca cells also use for food sugars of most kinds to take in and by fermentation, create lactic acid in the Pca cell for energy, and also to keep the PH of the Cancer Cell at 6.7, as it does not like being at 7 or above---they tend to die.

    So we have 2 major food sources, DHT and Sugar, and Pca cells have different receptors for different foods. That is one of the reasons to take Avodart or Proscar, to prevent the 5-alpha reductase enzymes from converting T to DHT. You can also do it with DIM[Di-indole methane]. They get their T from the small amount the Adrenals put out when on ADT, which shuts down the Testes but not the Adrenals.

    So after becoming castrate resistant according to Purdue Univ. The Pca cells do a work around by using cholesterol as an energy food source to create T and then DHT in the cell. So in conclusion of the above, which is surely open for more proof--If our cholesterol was near zero, and we ate no sugars, and our T and DHT was near zero--you should kick the bastards towards total death. Of course you would die if you had no Cholesterol, and eliminated your body from having or making sugar.

    As to the AR-V7 Gene splices--I talked for an hour with a top Geneticist at Foundation One--and she convinced me to not go for the test. That the Gene Spice can turn on[positive], or go off[negative]. The main reason to have this test is to basically determine when castrate resistant, whether Xtandi or Zytiga will work for you. She describes situations where doing chemo can change the Gene Splice to On or Off--and that other drugs can do the same thing. So at this point I am leaving it alone--as she said if you go on Xtandi or Zytiga--and you are positive for the Splice--you still will get 6 months before it stops working.

    Taking a break Martin

    Nalakrats

  • I don't think that the categorization of T as being "food" is especially helpful, even though others do it, and one can see that said in books. T is a hormone, part of the system of biological signaling, not a source of material to be digested and used as building blocks for the cell or as a source of energy.

    True that T is turned into DHT by a change of two hydrogen atoms, but I don't see how calling that "digestion" advances understanding.

    This is not directed at you specifically. It is a general comment on the ideas being used to try to get a grip on the reality of cancer, using the tool of analogy. Gllucose might be considered "food" since it is it seems certain a source of energy, but to try to draw analogy between the whole human body and the prostate cell itself is something that can be safely abandoned in 2nd grade, I feel. And should be.

    I dont mean this as a general comment to you main point, which I have not quite grasped yet, as you have a lot there. It's an attempt to "deconstruct" your comment into pieces to understand it bit by bit.

  • Martin did not mean that T was the Food, but that DHT was the food, so to speak. The Pca cell thru its Androgen receptors, I am understood to believe metabolizes the DHT. Anytime there is metabolization, it can be construed as eating, though not every form of something metabolizing is eating. We understand the Pca cell taking inside of itself, sugar, and metabolizing the sugar, and that one of the metabolites is lactic acid, which the cell uses to maintain its acidic PH.

    So I ask, if the DHT and cancer cell gets together, do they form a union and dance, around in the blood. Since Pca cells have many dozens of receptors, I do not know how many are used for sugar and how many are Androgen[DHT] receptors--depends on your pathology. But I cannot imagine building ugly erector set type structures. The DHT gets used up. So if you know--where does it go?

  • well yes prostate cells, cancer or no cancer, convert T to DHT. Why the cell does not therefore just fill-up with DHT, I dont know. I hear that T enters the nucleus, and so possibly DHT does also, though what it does there, I have no idea.

    Since cancer is passed on to daughter cells, the cell DNA must be "mutated". And mutated by some factor that is present in the nucleus, so I assume levels of T or DHT are the causative factor. ----

    The concentration of T in the cell cytoplasm has a fixed limit (I say) because osmotic pressure will tend to push a molecule from high concentration to low concentration, assuming any wall is permeable to the molecule. So the AR receptors act as "pumps" increasing the concentration of T within the cell from that outside the cell, but at some concentration of T inside the cell, for every new molecule that enters, one leaves. This concentration level difference is a measure of the power of the pump.

  • re "The Pca cell thru its Androgen receptors, I am understood to believe metabolizes the DHT."

    Prostate cells transfer Testosterone from outside the cell to inside the cell via the androgen receptor. It is a pathwall, an opening into the cell. Metabolites would be created within the cell.

  • Why are you asking me questions--you seem to know more than I do?

    Nalakrats

  • not my video

  • Here is something I don't understand. You say

    "That the estradiol caused the prostate cancer, and since it was in such large amounts, it could not come from the small amount of estrogen men naturally have. "

    The "small amount of estrogen men naturally have". How do men naturally have estradiol? How do they have any? It's not just "there", is it, in a box. It doesn't come from say the stomach, from food. It's made somewhere. Men don't have ovaries. It's made in a gland, in the prostate gland.

    I believe its true that men have both androgen receptor and estrogen receptors, and that the receptors come in so-called alpha and beta variants, and in women at least the alpha variant seems to be connected to (breast) cancer, and there are related ideas downstream from this, but the role of the estrogen receptor, and estrogen, in prostate cancer is something that is currently under investigation by Dr Eric Castle for one, and he has a talk that touches on that topic on audio digest

    audio-digest.org/adfwebcast...

  • Martin I said that the theory is that with the Cadavers having so much estradiol, in their prostates, when back tracking the source, it was postulated to come from the breakdown of DHT, and the enzymatic action, of the 5-alpha reductase enzymes, it then over time the estradiol, builds up in the prostate gland. This known cancer Agent and how to prevent it, or keep it under control while supplementing with T, can be found in the Written works of Dr. Zelig. Type in his name it will take you to his DIM Site---Order his literature--call the 800 Number, and ask for his recent papers to be e-mailed to you in PDF format--and for further info, get a hold of Dr. Charles Snuffy Meyers book, On Prostate Cancer, Hormones and Diet and Nutrition. These will answer your deepest questions.

    Nalakrats

  • whateve

  • Re: " When back tracing the source" - wikipedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aroma...

  • I read your reply (I suppose) thinking that it was a comment on the V7 question that is bothering me, but now I see that it isn't. Not really.

  • hi

    The current thinking is prostate cancer is caused by testosterone, if this is correct young males should also get pc. With an open mind listen to dr John talk on youtube which gives an insite on progesterone, if that sparks an interest on his web site there is a book called hormone balance for men for a small cost. I am not peddling this treatment, I am interested to try it if it works great, if it doesn't work, I will call it intermittent ADT.

  • Hi-Still in study mode--Lots of replies coming in to my request.

    Thanks,

    Nalakrats

  • I am not sure of your search. Treatment with high Testosterone? Dr Bob Leibowitz at Compassionate Oncology in Los Angeles uses high Testosterone to keep PSA down.

  • efsculpt: are you treated by his group? I am considering it, mostly because I think ADT long term - well that there is no long term.

  • efsculpt--I am aware of Leibowitz---Thanks--He is on my list for my Doctor to call.

    Nalakrats

  • I talked to leibowitz and his theory makes a lot of sense. Hit the PCa hard with triple ADT for one year then never go on ADT again to prevent CRPC...after one year of ADT control the PCa with chemo or other drugs and you will never get CRPC and therefore will not die from PCa.

  • Gusgold --can you expound further on what is used after one year. Is Leibowitz open for a patient from N.C. talking with him, or if not can my Doctor Communicate with him. I think he is on the west coast. And just thought if using Chemo--what does he recommend. Is his Theory, written, or in a book, that can be accessed?

    Nalakrats

  • Nal,

    Leibowitz is a Myers clone...uses internet to drum up business and then charges big bucks. Big on leukine, ketaconazole, ursodiol...same tired stable of drugs Myers touts...big difference is Myers has no problem keeping his patients on ADT as long as it works..Leibowitz wants to hit the PCa with one year of ADT3 and never use ADT again...my opinion is save your time as both are way over rated...why pay Myers thousands of dollars out of pocket when you can go to The Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, MD Anderson, The Cleveland Clinic ect and have most of the cost covered by insurance. An oncologist at The Mayo Clinic told me they have a brisk business treating Myers failures. A friend of mine had a rising PSA after being on Lupron for 33 months...against my advice he panicked and paid Myers $5000...surprise surprise...what did he get for $5000.....Xtandi, Lupron, Metformin, and Avodart..hell..I would have rec'd that protocol and just asked to jump his sisters bones. The fact of the matter is Nal, with your reading of the literature and knowledge of supplements, you probably know more than either one of those 2 overpriced clowns. The best course of action in not complicated...start out with Lupron, Avodart, Metformin, Arimidex, Dostinex and supplements...if PSA starts to rise add Zytiga...if PSA starts to rise again add Xtandi...and if that protocol eventually fails I would go to one of the Hospitals listed above because of their access to cutting edge research and access to clinical trials. At this point what a guy has to do is survive 2 years...because a cure is in the pipeline or at the very least drugs that will make PCa nothing more than a chronic condition that can be treated.

  • Nal,

    Both Myers and Leibowitz use chemo when Zytiga and Xtandi no longer control the cancer...I have read that because of what chemo does to the immune system, supplements will never work again so, I would only use chemo as a last resort.

    Gus

  • gusgold, Thanks for your 2 update responses--very timely. I am on the way to visit Doctor for my monthly---he also says Chemo is a last resort--and prefers to keep you on triple blockade for as long as it works--I just added CBD Oil--had first dose last night--interesting--the ADT itchies were mostly gone and slept well. Usually wake up with hip bone pain, from sleeping on my side--not there this morning! Will report on more info when I have more research on myself. Regards,

    Nalakrats

  • Nal,

    recommend you google metformin and PCa.....should be in your protocol...makes PCa less aggressive over time and can prevent the development of type 2 diabetes associated with long term use of ADT.

    Gus

  • Gus--saw the Doc. today--can check in with him again about Metformin--My Blood Sugar is rising being controlled by diet and doses of Cinnamon Pwd. Think you make sense. Will research a bit tonight. Doc. allows me anything I ask for---we work well with each other.

    Thanks,

    Nalakrats