I’m in Cornwall and have seen a private neurologist who has asked for me to been seen by a neuropsychologist but from what I’m getting back from my GP Cornwall refused referral and stroke team does have one in this area …..
please can anyone advise me on what they do and can they help with the a brain that dosnt work and personality changes etc 😡😡😡😡very angry that no help is available in Cornwall Sue 🤬
Hiya..
I was under a neurologist and he referred me to Dr Russell Sheldrick a neuropsychologist at Salford Royal Hospital, this was during lockdown in 2020 so only spoke over the phone & webcam however the chats with him changed me mentally and physically (for the better of course),
Hi Sue,
Here's the services that are supposed to be in your area
cornwallft.nhs.uk/neuro-reh...
It looks similar to the one in my area, BUT, in reality mine does not exist in practice.
Think Cornwall are also in special measures like my area.
Shocking that someone with spinal fractures and a bleed on the brain has had no neurological support and has had to go to a private neurologist. This should have been done as a matter of course because of the injury. It should have been standard to see a neuropsychologist shortly after.
What's written on paper, the services provided, don't seem to exist for you either.
Anyway, I'll share my experience: after much cajoling my GP sent me to another health authority to be assessed in a center of excellence, it took 5 minutes to be diagnosed by a neurologist. He asked why had I not been assessed by the neuropsyche team in my area, the answer was because they refused to see me. He wrote a scathing letter to my health authority and within a week the neuropsyche team phoned me up and arranged screening and testing; I got the VIP assessment treatment.
This is what happened with me:
First visit was a general get to know me.
Second visit (in another location) I had to bring someone who had known me for at least five years, was a review of my life history and mental health assessment. I was measured in the normal category (I did not have depression and has the same anxiety levels as anyone on the street, normal)
Third, fourth, fifth and sixth sessions, all at different locations (I was told later it was to see how different sensory stimuli affected me), each at least 3 hours long, I was put through neuro functional tests.
Seventh session, the results were formulated, and I was told I had: reduced cognitive speed, reduced cognitive capacity, reduced ability to store and retrieve memory, aphasia - issues with understanding language and text coming into the brain, difficulty finding words for speech but the written word was normal; Above average abstract visual memory, below average memory for remembering text, symbols, numbers and everyday objects; visual and auditory sensory overload.
Eighth session - the future plan. I was told that people who had had a brain injury for 2 years did not recover and that I should accept that I would have to spend the rest of my life like that. If I felt depressed, I should see my GP for antidepressants. And that was it!
At this point I asked if she had heard of neuroplasticity, because I had heard that the brain can recover function at any stage after a brain injury. She said she had heard of neuroplasticity and that neurofunctional training works.
So I asked where was the rehab, the neurofunctional training. I was given a straight answer after that.
Professionally, she said she had to tell me I would not recover because that was the health authority policy.
Then stating that she was now talking as a private individual, she said that I should look for neurofunctional techniques on the internet or go private because there was no money for any rehab services or neuropsychological therapy.
Simply they can do some tests but there may not be any money for realistic rehab.
I found what I needed on YouTube, it's all there.
Hope that gives you an idea of what happens in a neuropsyche assessment. I do need to remind you that my assessment was a full 3-month assessment (peeling off the layers as she called it), a battery test format, and not just a quick chat and opinion.
At the end of the day it only confirmed some of the brain injury issues and it made no difference to anything.
Thank you for your information . Did is you go to anyone regarding neuro functional training ..? Is that the same as neuro plasticity ? Did it help you to know what is actually wrong as for me I think I’m imagining it at times and unsure what and where to go next .. I just need clarity ..Sue 🥴
Neuroplasticity means your brain can change, neurofunctional training are techniques to train targeted brain functions. My neuropsyche assessment outlined some dysfunctions, also pointed out things that were normal or better than normal.
Interestingly she pointed out that it was better to have a neuropsyche assessment a couple of years after a brain injury because it takes time for the initial injury to heal, then emotionally adjust to living with dysfunctions but the thing that can't be separated in NHS testing are the differences between sensory processing issues and cognitive functions ie, you may not be able to read because either your visual processing is faulty or your ability to cognitively understand language may be faulty.
I was lucky enough to have got tested by a neuro/ behavioural optometrist before getting the neuropsyche test so both my visual and cognitive abilities to read were found to be dysfunctional. It makes a difference and it would be a waste of time retraining yourself to read cognitively if the sensory processing of the information coming into the cognitive process was faulty.
Unfortunately, the NHS does not do realistic visual processing testing. The other issue is that physical conditions especially with a cervical spine injury like you have and like I have also affects sensory processing and cognitive processing and also affects to emotional response.
These are called the domains of brain injury and they are hard to separate.
If you have had a hypopituitary test (I did and it was normal) you can rule out hormonal effects, if you get an optometry test you can find out if you have visual sensory processing problems or rule them out, you can also get cervical/ vestibular/ ocular treatment to fix those issues or rule them out and what you have left are cognitive issues that can be retrained through repetitive retraining.
The people who recover take about 3-5 years once they start down this road but not everything can be recovered and they have to learn to live with what they have left.
Best thing is to avoid everything that triggers anything you have ie if LED lights or noise causes a problem then avoid them.
Knowing what the issues were only made me think 'yes I did have these issues' because neurologists, GP's and other doctors always came up with the excuse that I had psychological issues ie depression or anxiety and these were causing my symptoms but the tests showed these were in the normal range. So to be able to say 'see I told you so' to the unbelievers was good but it made no difference on my recovery because neurofunctional rehab categorizes brain injuries differently to the way the nhs does.
I made up my own neurofunctional training from YouTube that fitted my symptoms from my experience not from what the tests or what any doctor told me.
Thanks PV. I have not had a hypopituitary test and I will.try requesting one.
My parathyroid hormone is usually too high. I have never been offered an explanation, or any follow up.
I am considerung a local naturopath who specializes in brain injury.
I doubt someone would send me to an endocrinologist. Docs at walk in clinics don't like to do referrals.
Leaf
Who tests your parathyroid hormone? is it your GP or do you pay?
If it's your GP and your levels are low why have they not dealt with it.
If it's private have they offered some kind of replacement.
Ah! just looked online and here's a page from the NHS, it seems you can sort it out by changing your diet.
nhs.uk/conditions/hypoparat...
If I can get a gp to agree to the test the system will pay.However, I do not have a family doctor and will likely never have one..there is a shortage here.
You go to a walk in clinic by calling one by queuing on the phone at opening. If they open at nine if you call at 1 minute after you will not get an appointment , try again tomorrow. It's exhausting.
Then you have no idea who you will get. Many are not brain injury literate and don't want to get involved. There is no standard of practice and they don't touch it.
If they refer they have to follow up. They don't want to.
If they do refer, the followup is with the clinic, not the doctor. It is someone different every time.
If I see a naturopath they can authorize tests and I have to pay for them. Since there is one who takes an interest in hormones ans brain injury she is likely my best bet - I have to check on how much to see if I can afford it.
Thanks so much for the link I will.check it out. I am .somewhat ske ptical because my system is no longer wired like other people's. For example , anti inflammatories cause inflammation. That's a bugger.
Leaf x
hi Pinkvision - are you able to paste links or titles of the youtube videos you found please? any that were particularly good? thanks
Hi Dann, check out these playlists from the Neuroplasticity Summit. These are independent providers who offer specialist options, they explain what they do. Obviously you have to pay for them but you can figure out what they are doing by making extra searches in their fields.
youtube.com/@neuroplasticit...
At the end of the day you need to develop a strategy for your own rehab based on what matches your symptoms.
It does not go into psychological therapies because that's what mainstream health systems do, the are more for regaining your sensory, body regulation and cognitive processes.
'The star of the show' for me was Barbara Arrowsmith-Young
youtube.com/watch?v=KOY8gOm...
thanks so much for this.
Hi Sue,
I saw a psychologist here who had an interest in brain injury . She did a bunch of tests to measure deficits and also did an assessment where she put wires all over my head and then measured this or that while I watched something particular.
The neuropsychiayrist said the numbers she got meant somethingbyo him.
I got several colored pages showing different parts of my brain in red, yellow, green , and blue. Red was highly overactive, green normal, and blue highly underactive.
There was also a drawing of a skull with red , clearly showing then front and back action of the injury.
None of of it was ever explained ro me and as far as I could tell did not result on any particular therapy.
What it did do what help me get disability income.
I feel the system is massively failing when it comes to treatment because they can't agree it's a physical injury, never mind what fo do about it - past sewing it up if it's bleeding and medicating it to control seizures or mood.
It does not mean don t try though. It's documentation and you may need it. And who knows, you might get something helpful.
Just don't get your hopes up, only to be disappointed once again..
I found ways to do my own therapy like Pv did though without the academic bit and research and understanding. I just followed my nose and did what I could. It helped a lot but I have not recovered as much as PV has.
Fatigue is really very limiting, for example. And a fee other things never looked at I have had to stumble over and try to find a way to do.
Mostly what has helped me was becoming aware, learning strategies like how to take rest breaks often, simplify life - and then find something that was hard but not impossible and work on it til I could do it.
Couldn't stand noise? Asked my Mom.to talk to me on the phone even though I couldn't really talk as well. Listening helped a lot. Added in the nightly sports on the Radio - not cause I am a sports fan but because the hosts had low pitched voices and said the same thing over and over again, and no music in the background. Then I watched wwii YouTube videos in black and white. Wwii ones have not much music background because the lads were off in the war.
From there, learned to turn the saturation off in vlc media player so I could watch noisier stuff in black and white. Colour was a bridge too far.
I also found a grey theme for my computer.
You can also use a TV as a monitor and control colour and saturation on it.
I had the car radio off when I was in it. I can now listen to talk shows - prefer not music. I can but it is too tiring.
There also tons of free computer games for kiddies on the internet. I would try and find ones challenging but not too, and then maybe spring for a copy and play it til I won all.the prizes. The first one I got did not assume you could read. It was hard but I got to the end. And then found out the only prize I had won was foe finishing- there were several others. So I played til I could win them all.
I wasn't sure what it was rewiring but they all helped something.
Right now I am using using Duolingo to learn French. Otherwise known as practicing speaking and listening skills. Well, at first I couldn't do French at all- I did years if it in high-school. A memory issue? Anyway I could do Spanish so I did quite a bit that program and then suddenly my brain kept flipping into French ,- so French it is.
I let my brain guide me and try not to fight it.
I guess my real point here is there is lots you can do on your own and it doesn't cost anything and it all still helps.
One of my pen pals I have known for 8 years now says I am unrecognizable from back then. I met her 8 years or so after the injury. A tribute to her compassionate nature as I was a poor penpal back then. Yes, I was trying to learn how to be social and do small talk at the slowestvl pace possible - with the help of the post office.
So nuts to them saying you're stuck wherever you were at 2 years or 4 years - It is not true.
Done babbling for now.
Leaf x
Some good tips there, I found practicing to talk and remembering what to say was good, it took a long time and I started by trying to repeat the alphabet. I knew the alphabet but when I tried to recite it I could only remember 3 letters at a time. If I started at A I could get to C but then forget what was next, that was working memory, I would go for a walk and keep practicing, then it got to 4 letters, then 5 and so on until I could say all of them. That took a few weeks, then I learned to do it phonetically because that's how it is used in speech. Then I moved on to words and sentences, I practiced this by just talking to people, it was weird because I lost my thread all the time but kept going and single sentences became multiple sentences and over a couple of years I could have conversations.
Another thing I found good was to listen to a very short story, 10 to 15 minutes, then I would try to tell the story by repeating it verbally, but I would also write it down. I kept doing it with different stories. It was all like creating a verbal memory system. It worked because today I can talk the hind legs off a donkey.
The important thing I learned was that just do one thing at a time and reduce everything else in life to the bare essentials otherwise there is too much input and output and the brain can't keep up. But doing the one thing over and over and over retrains that functioning. Once it was there it was fixed and I would move on to the next training session and repeat that until it worked.
The next phase was to mix different learned skills together, to integrate them into multifunctioning skill sets.
Do the things you can't do not the things you can do.
And what you brain allows.I can not bear listening to someone read. It makes me want to run out of the room.
I can listen to the duo lingo stories because they have multiple speakers and it is very conversational.
I can write a lot better than I can speak.
Conversation is still an issue for me. I have trouble keeping up, or knowing what to say, particularly if it isn't a directed conversation about a transaction or problem
Part of it is I don't have much to make small talk about, since I don't get put much. I was learning to get my sense of humour back from my Mom, so the seeds are there. Needs more work.
I make a good straight banana cause I am very literal.
I also find it useful to go back to some of the old activities now and then to see if I can still do them or kind-of get tuned up.
what about dramatized stories with multiple characters, loads on youtube
Right now I am wanting to get to grips with light kidding around, to work on social skills and be in the moment...
I find a lot of dramas model the worst decision making possible ...otherwise the story is done... I don't want to feed my brain that
I am trying to find commentators with a sense of humour, that's a bit harder..
And youtube as a source is a good idea..
I do watch the Buddhist Ajahn Brahm on there - he gives secular talks on how to handle various situations or questions asked about life, by his viewership (He was born in London and now lives in Australia.) His meditation classes are great because you literally need to do - nothing... yes I know , you just listen to him and then you get in the zone.. and he says less and less ril.he is not speaking at all...
Ah well there's the problem, sitting and doing nothing is fine if that's what you want to do and can handle it. But you want to recover your conversation skills, to do that you have to engage in conversation. Do the things you can't do and you will recover the skills, listen to that reader rather than running out of the room, if Duolingo is doable try speaking the language for real. That's the battle, your brain will adapt to anything you repetitively do but only you can do it. Do what Ajahn Brahm is doing, being mindful and answering questions, he is not doing nothing.
Hi PV, you've got the wrong end of the stick.
I am not sitting around doing nothing.
Duolingo has active speaking and listening skills - they have an AI listener that will tell you if you have said it correctly or not. It's really helping me reconnect some things in the speaking area, for one. There are multiple characters of different ages and that helps as well. You also have to listen to distinct and subtle sounds that change the meaning. So, you are speaking and listening to the language 'for real'. (Sure, it isn't at the level of a native speaker - they go way too fast for me .) The AI also mixes up the topics and sentences being worked on so you don't know what you are going to get - if you flub you will see that one more often, in different forms, til you get it. I am really about getting the benefits for my brain more than being hung up on the language. ( I am about half way through A2 level and I'm ok with that - it's not a race for me.)
The meditation is also not doing nothing, it's about being in a receptive zone rather than being caught up in the mind chatter. A necessary skill, and also part of a rest component. I did use that phrase though - I ought to have been clearer. Most of the 'meditations' I have run into are called guided, which means someone is talking during the entire thing - there is no actual stillness allowed, they are always in the way. I have always detested them.
With Ajahn Brahm's method, you get in the zone and he has helped create the space, talking is not necessary and would be contrary to the point of the exercise. It's like falling through the cracks of whatever sound is there to something else. I am hoping it will help me become less ... sound reactive... over time as I learn to put noise in it's place.
I will have to agree to disagree with you on the listening to people read. I find, for myself, if I pick things that are challenging, stopping short of things that are too much, it's better for me in the long run. Experience has taught me not to fight my brain - it shows me windows it wants to open, and if I stick with those I make steady progress - throw myself against a wall where no window has appeared, and it's a loss. My brain and I are friends, and work co operatively. I am not it's drill sargeant, and it would fight me to the death if I tried that.
I was playing with you about what you said in your comment,
"His meditation classes are great because you literally need to do - nothing..."
Sorry, I thought you would see my meaning.
Ha ha... yes that would be me, I am working in my sense of humour and missing the beat..Totally me with the wrong end of the stick..
And being stuck in being literal. I used to drive my poor Mom nuts - she had a very sru sense of humour and she'd say oh I can't even kid around with you...
I'm working on it...
Also...
I freely admit I am a bit defensive these days having to deal with an unkind and Manipulative sibling.
Thanks for being understanding PV
hi PV and leaf .. thank you for your reply’s .. I don’t think I will necessarily improve but would like the chance if I could My main reason is understanding , clarity , not living with I don’t have a clue which is where I’m at .. so I do still think the neuropsychological is a definite step forward for me .. such a shame the NHS done have a clue about and prefer addressing the mental health like more anti depressants ..Sue x
Sue, you do have to watch the depression diagnosis, some of us have injuries that impact our emotional responses- it doesn't mean we have depression.Anxiety , believe it or not, cam be a useful diagnosis as they seem to give up hounding you, to a certain extent.
The depression diagnosis doesn't follow you around as much as an anxiety diagnosis does.
They seem to feel bi comes with both.
The other one they can stick you with if your emotions are not as expected is - bipolar. Where I live my understanding quite a few bi people are wondering around thinking they have bi polar but they don't. Regular psychiatrists just can't tell the difference between that and a brain injury.
It's true I don't have medical support and I am just as glad I don't- I might get more problems that I don't have.
It's hard, and harder because you may very well get rubbish diagnoses..diagnosises? Diagnosae?. chucked at you.
Leaf
Yeah I know .. I suffered with depression for years before my accident and know that is is nothing like the way I feel now .. I do have anxiety what has been escalated by the lack of help from the NHS . All I have asked for is clarity to help me move forward .. maybe something that I can improve but not feeling like I have or am imagining the whole thing .. I worked as a support worker for a guy with brain injury and the mental health .. so I have some idea about all of this before I fell out of the loft .. all I have asked for is help to actually she what I have done to my brain or if there is anything else happening as I have no idea .. that why I went private for my own peace of mind .. and yes o do have brain damage so all the things I’m feeling are real .. clarity for me is very big , even if the outcome is not good it is so much easier working with the know not well it could be etc .. so finding there is a brain injury is good for me .. just need to sort out my sudden decline in eyesight . As I have gone from long sighted to short sighted over night or in the week I was on holiday .. tick one thing off the list and another comes alone to take its place … Sue 🤪
I do hope going private pays off for you Sue.
I have a few things to try the private route out on myself.
Oh, I did pay for a psychologist with an interrst in brain injury to do some testing - she hooked me up to one of those machines where they put the sensors all over your head. It was very validating to see the results , and did help me realize, on some level, the extent of the injury. There were lots of visual representations and that helped me get it. There was a lot there - and I had a totally normal MRI.
That likely has given me 'the evidence' part of my being needed.
Fingers crossed you get something satisfying put if it.
Leaf x
Yeah I am feeling better just getting clarity on it .. I can’t understand why the NHS doesn’t deal with this side of anything .. it’s the unknown that drives you crazy .. .. so far I’m happy with what has happened privately and will continue to go private if the nhs do t provide what I think is totally needed and negligence of care from the nhs .. if this and other things we’re treated with support I don’t think the mental health teams would be under so much pressure .. the answers are there indent of them as that’s what patients are asking for not another pill to get rid of as you said depression or anxiety .. Sue 😊
hi, I have seen a neuropsychologist and done some testing like the others have said on here. I have also seen one privately as a regular part of my rehab journey. They’ve been great at helping me understand how the brain works (or doesn’t at times) and what is going on when I have panic attacks, or get anxious, or become avoidant or do weird brain injury things and all that. Working together they helped me to develop strategies and tools to help me better cope throughout the day and when I meet challenging situations. Mine also had additional trainings in working with trauma so we have also done a lot around processing and coming to terms with what happened to me.
They are quite solution focussed and trying to find positives and sometimes I just want someone to sit in the shit with me, but I guess that’s not really what they’re there for.
i have found my neuropsychologist to be one of the most important and supportive presences in my recovery.
I had one that had me do a lot of mind/thinking exercises such as looking at drawings and redrawing them from memory, hearing a story and then repeating it, other task-related memory activities. It can identify issues that I should do for mental exercises to help me improve.
Following. I also haven't seen one, though I think I was referred a few months ago (but my neurologist wasn't particularly helpful). My local brain injury rehab team made no mention of them - just stuff on fatigue management and vestibular, when I was really hoping for more one-on-one or cognitive support. I would also be interested in knowing whether they actually add much. May be that I'm just not on the priority list.
Hi Teazymaid, I saw two neuropsychologists privately. Both private. First one was because the neurologist wanted me to be tested / assessed. I think that was two to three hours of a pretty impersonal battery of tests and a report. Basically said that I had some cognitive issues even though it was more than the months after the injury, and I was mildly depressed.Second neuropsychologist was great, huge help, she did brain rehab for a local NHS trust. I mainly asked her to help me with fatigue. She was great at suggesting stuff like diaries to go over together in our weekly sessions (and then spread out to two) and explaining why some things were particularly difficult for me based on the other neuropsychologist's report, and what strategies I could use to cope. She also supported me while I tapered off the antidepressant. Said I wasn't depressed, I'd just had a brain injury.
I found her to be immensely practical and positive.
Thank you painting girl .. I am getting positives from those who have seen a neuropsychologist like yourself . So will be pursuing it .. hopefully my GP contacting another hospital out of our county will except the referral or then it will be private for actual the same hospital which is the closest neuro hospital to me as we son have any in Cornwall .. sue x
Can I ask - how are people actually *finding* private neuropsychologists?
There doesn't seem to be much available here (Sheffield) and we're told the brain injury rehab team are excellent but I felt pretty much fobbed off on the cognitive side - told I was cognitively intact and it's a matter of managing fatigue and stress which are manifesting as cognitive symptoms.
While there's definitely some truth in that, I'm about to go back to work after six months, and noone has actually *assessed* my cognitive ability whatsoever.
I would definitely consider going private, but I'm struggling to find anything (likewise neuro optometry - closest is hours away on public transport, and charges up to £650). Manchester concussion clinic didn't even deign to reply to my email.
Cheers.
I’m in Cornwall and the nhs said they are unable to take on anyone else and the stroke neuro rehab don’t have one so private neurologist has asked if my Gp can try referring my to Derifford in Plymouth Devon .. if this doesn’t a come off the actual Private Neuropsychologist that the private neurologist recommended is also the head at Derriford … so one way or another I will be seeing the Dr in Plymouth .. you seem to have to travel to get to see anyone if you live in Cornwall so I’m guessing it’s the same for you … it’s taken me 3 ans half years to actually understand that I can’t do so many things and I want it looked at as with neuro plasticity just to see if there is anything else I can do to help myself improve to the best I can .. not just except where I am with no help .. good luck on your finding a neuropsychological .. Sue 😊
I was seeing the neuropsychiatrist's psychologist in central London, and we agreed that the costs and travel were too much for me, and she pointed me to a general psychologist's website so I could choose one myself. She said the main thing was to be able to get on with them, but that they were strong enough to challenge you. The private neuropsychologist I found that way was really good - her NHS work was in brain rehab in a local Trust. I can't remember the website, but if I can track it down, I'll post it on here.
Hi Ideogram and Teazymaid - I'm pretty sure it was this site it was suggested I use.
Oh lovely thank you … it’s been nice to hear others have found seeing a neuropsychologist even just for information has been a positive Sue x
I’ve just sent a message to the closes one to me which is over 110 miles 🥴 waiting to see what she says to my email Sue 😊
Oh Sue, 110 miles is a lot... Was hoping you'd find something easier x
Though I only met with mine once or twice before lockdown happened, and we went onto Zoom, and she was still really helpful
Will wait and see if u get a reply from the email .. and although I hate it it seems like so much is done on zoom so although I prefer face to face the distance doesn’t matter .. will keep you posted .Sue x
I've only worked out recently that when I get an uptick in anxiety it's actually when I'm trying to work out how to get several competing tasks done in the same day - so I think it is a consequence of the residual effects of my BI - I think if I work on my reaction at that point on that basis (rather than freezing) I might see an improvement.I was reading about ADHD the other day, and its impact on executive function - it's no wonder that people already with ADHD before ABI suffer more. But I'm going to assume that I'm functioning in some ways like I've acquired ADHD via the MTBI - so assume I can find some new coping strategies on ADHD sites.. Interestingly my 'time blindness' is quite marked too.
You sound like me talking .. my anxiety goes up very fast when trying to deal with more than one thing at the same time . I’m reading a book that someone else recommended and it’s putting into words how I feel … unbelievably 😁 Sue x
It's a brilliant book to read, isn't it? Makes such a difference to see this stuff in writing. Such a game changer somehow for me when I read it early on.He's on YouTube too by the way - I haven't watched all his stuff, but am guessing it could be useful?
I only recently heard someone say about this book , it might have been you who said about it .. I will have a look on you tube later . Very strange to read the words of something I couldn’t understand/ explain .
Totally agree Sue. I'd put it on my Kindle early on and was quite stunned when I read it. I think it was the first by time I realised what had happened to me was real somehow.
The other book someone suggested on here to me was by Jody Mardula and Caroline Vaughan ' Mindfulness and Stroke - a personal story of managing brain injury'
Mardula wrote this with Caroline Vaughan, her neuropsychologist who comments on each section of Mardula's diary in the first half. The second half of the book is written by Vaughan and explains different aspects of brain injury and ways to cope. It's a useful insight into what neuropsychologists know and do.
J x
I will try that book also 😁
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