Is this PD related? Well yeah I suppose it is although I’m a little coy in posting it. But MBA’s recent post made me think, and it IS 2024 and I’m told by the internet that people are becoming more spiritual these days (really? 🤔😵💫) and I have had a deep mystical experience . So I ask the question is ‘do you have any evidence of an afterlife?’ Please note, I’ve explicitly loaded that question and so I get positive responses. I’m not interested in debating with the scientific materialists in this particular post although there’s bound to be opportunities at another time.
Afterlife: Is this PD related? Well yeah I... - Cure Parkinson's
Afterlife
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jeeves19
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Jeeves, evidence? That's a tough question. Kind of depends on one's beliefs.
Some people who have experienced near death situations, or who have died for a few minutes on the table (surgery) state they saw a light and know what afterlife is. Or was this just the brain working in a different mode?
I'd like to believe there is an afterlife but I do not have solid evidence. Your deep mystical experience - did that provide you some evidence?
Yes, I think so, but it has to be experienced and is impossible to evidence as the environment ‘over there’ is very different with more dimensions than the three that we are used to. I can only make personal observations but reading about the numerous NDEs that now seem common, they often mention the tremendous speed that they initially traveled at. I sense that this relates to quantum mechanical forces being involved and can be linked to the extra dimension that I sensed. Einstein always claimed that an extra dimension would be created if you could travel faster than light.
Btw, to have any kind of hallucination you have to have a healthy, intact brain which isn’t the case during a heart attack. During this event, the brain is still undergoing severe trauma and hasn’t got time or resources to divert to comforting its ‘host’. It’s trying to survive.
This person had an NDE while her body was in suspended animation - body temperature lowered, heart and respiration turned off. During this time she observed events in the operating room:
youtu.be/VUD6kfEcgLc?si=S6N...
Hi Park_Bear,
From you:“During this time she observed events in the operating room”.
This is a very common experience, almost everyone has experienced it, albeit for a short moment. It's usually a view of yourself out of the body from above, sometimes sharp or sometimes a little more confusing and short. It can happen under anesthesia, often at the dentist or for a sudden short shock without serious damage. Then the person gets scared instantly comes back because it is not his ideal position and then nullify the episode justifying it as a dream or hallucination.
Maybe 🤔
Greetings from Italy
😀
P.S. the video do not work for me for BBC COPYRIGHT
My peonia in “vase of peonies “, my wife's artwork.🤗
Tested many times by having controlled noted messages visible only from above in operating rooms. Zero confirmation over many tries.
Marion. Thanks for all your many contributions (below!) to this thread. The attempt to offer symbols above hospital beds was pioneered by Sam Parnia in has AWARE study (2013/15? Forget which one). It was as you say a resounding disappointment but I think when interviewed, many respondents argued that the shelves were too high and that even if they’d have ‘seen’ them, they wouldn’t have taken any notice as they weren’t aware that they’d been searching for them. Sam has recently produced an excellent documentary which is available on YouTube. Just type his name and NDEs and I’m sure it’ll come up.
I urge you to take a longer look at the case of Pam Reynolds. But approach with an open mind. A closed scientific mind - sounds like an oxymoron but it always strikes me as tragic how few genuinely free thinkers there are - will find any number of objections.
Actually it doesn’t depend on belief. It is either true or not true, and peoples beliefs are either right or wrong!
But I checked , and they said you dont make the rules . What if one has to believe for it to be true, then one can never see the truth to know if any one's belief is wrong. So many belief systems in the world and based on your rules, they are all wrong , what if they are all correct. Yes I know some are contradictory but it does not matter in my world , because in my world the wonder of it all is so obvious all around us that justification seems to me a petty thing because it is irrelevant what the rules are . You are engulfed in your own logic and if you are satisfied with that condition stay there and revell , enjoy it. Some religions demand that followers try to convert others where my belief system does not really care. You and Marion make a good team, you both rely on an extensive education but at some point valid or not you decided to stop taking in any more information especially opinion and that is a shame because, you could have been a philosopher, now would that have not been fun. ( philosophically speaking of course there is no argument , because truth is anything that the majority believes and is willing to state in a position to write history) . Be happy , enjoy the wonder and love all around you even f you do not believe in it.
So you are saying you think it's possible for God to have created my earth and universe because that is what I believe but evolution or chance to have developed yours because that is what you believe?🤔
yes or even the other way around. Do you see how easy that makes everything. It just simply is what you believe it is . Freedom of religion on a grand scale with opportunity for every one to find his truth .
Mm. Sorry, can’t buy that. In my scientific world things follow certain rules of nature. Some of these we know, others are yet to be discovered . Believing they work another way doesn’t make it so. Unless you have proof? Or do you think we are all in a simulation and nothing is real?
hi Gymbag
“ what is true for you is true.”
Quote attributed to Gauthama Siddadra Buddha.
He always said he was just a man and with his teachings he civilized the Middle East, removing those peoples from barbarism.
Experimental modern science has helped man escape famine, but it has also given us weapons to potentially extinguish him if the madness of war is not cured.
This is the task of the humanistic sciences which, by restoring trust between men, will prevent its extinction through war.
This is an example of what faith/trust is for in government diplomacy and why it should be studied and understood.
All wars are a failure of diplomacy and only the restoration of trust between countries by diplomacy brings an end to war.
Trust and faith in others or in ourselves are products of spiritual being, not of a chemical laboratory and everyone can experience these products, here is one proof that the soul exists i.e. its products.
These concepts such as faith/trust, once they are observed in depth, give me the idea of how far behind we are in knowledge and in the path towards discovering the true Creator of things. The same awareness comes to me regarding scientific subjects by observing the vastness of the universe.
As is easy to understand that all human progress must be both scientific and humanistic as long as this distinction exists.
Greetings from Italy
Arc de Triomphe Rome
“ what is true for you is true.”
Quote attributed to Gauthama Siddadra Buddha.
This quote is perhaps best understood when put in the context of faith/trust in one’s ability.
And what is the greatest human capacity based on faith ever seen on planet earth that we have heard of in history?
It is the healing ability by faith, the so-called miracle or as it is described in the texts of medicine, Spontaneous Remission of the disease, just to stay on the subject of HU CP.
You can find it here and if you read the text it says it may be underestimated.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spo...
Now the associative mind with these topics travels a lot, but I would like to stay on the initial quote:
“What is true for you is true”
Or does man have this ability, that is, to decide a fact and make it true, that is to say ‘I am healthy’ and start a remission of the disease?
In my opinion I would say yes, At least to some extent, but he should have a great faith in his ability to do so, which is no small feat.
Only my two cents,
Greetings from Italy
LAJ12345 The comment you made essentially saying "to each his or her own way" is a very profound one and if adopted by everyone, can bring peace on earth. I am not joking.
That was Gymsack🙂. Mmm, I’m not sure that it would bring peace on earth and I believe there is only one way. Following the teaching of Jesus would bring peace on earth.
Unfortunately other teachings and ways teach for example an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and severe punishments for straying away from religious laws. What we have in the world at the moment is everyone doing it their way and it’s not leading to peace as this revenge philosophy which is part of several religions doesn’t allow other people to “do it their way”.
This is what Jesus said:
“Matthew 5:38-48
New International Version
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
How do you know what we have stopped taking in? You can say it or you can assert it or you can accuse it, doesn't make it true. That's called ducking out by changing the question in mid debate because you're losing, it's like changing a horse in midstream...and when you get wet, saying oh, well, sure, it's raining.
I usually answer by asking fur proof there is not an afterlife/God.
That’s your opinion
Why ask it only that way? (As if I didn't already know)
Okay, this is not proof of an afterlife, but this is my evidence of the supernatural, which is related: In 1980, way before the internet and 200 channels and nothing to watch, while I was stationed at Bergstrom AFB with no TV (and the rec room TV had 4 channels, no cable) I had a dream:
I was a huge Charles Grodin fan (loved him in the Heartbreak Kid) and a big Chevy Chase fan, and I dreamed that I was on a beach, and on this beach was a big tent, and I went into the tent and there was a cocktail party (with Arabs mostly) going on, and at that party I saw Chevy Chase!
So I was nervous but I went up to Chevy Chase and said something like "Sorry to bother you Mr Chase but I'm a huge fan of yours. I loved you in Foul Play" and he said something like "that's okay".
And then I said "You have a new movie, Seems Like Old Times, coming out. How is it?" and he said "it's okay. I go to jail in it".
And I said something like "wow, that sucks", and he said "it's okay, I get out of jail".
So when I went to see the movie about week later I told my girlfriend before it start "Chevy chase is going to go to jail and get out of jail during this movie. AND HE DID.
I have no idea of how I could have known this. The movie was written by Neil Simon (does not make you think of going to jail. All I think I knew about this movie was I saw the movie poster. Could my brain have figured this out from this poster? Maybe, but it seems like a stretch.
Seems Like Old Times movie poster
Charles Grodin, Chevy Chase and Neil Simon - all great!
I think you inadvertently plugged into a multi channel group astral projection which included a talk show with Neil Simon and Chevy Chase and one of them issued a teaser to stir interest for the movie... Might have even included a marketing clip. Galloglass a little further on says it's on you to prove I'm wrong. (He may have had a bit too many Gallo glasses.)
I think that this could be an example of crypto amnesia Bolt. We pick up stuff and put it into the subconscious almost absentmindedly much of the time. Thanks for sharing though and congratulations coincidentally I watched The Heartbreak Kid last week.
If we’re going down the weird stuff happening: in 1979 a gang of us went to see Zeppelin. A guy named Al was going to meet us there and phoned me to see if there was anything he should bring. I said just a knife and fork and a spoon as we had everything else. My friend Julian yelled from upstairs ‘and some sugar!’
We never managed to rendezvous with Al. The campsite had thousands and thousands of people and somehow it just never happened. I was telling the story to a barmaid who worked for my parents. I said ‘and Paul went to the burger van and heard a ‘hello’ as he walked through the crowd of 50,000 sleeping bags. He looked down and saw it was Al.
Margaret the Scottish barmaid said ‘with his sugar?’
’what did you just say?’
‘Och, I’ve no idea why I said that. It just entered my head. Sorry, carry on the story……,’
Odd eh?
I like to watch videos of accounts of near death experiences on YouTube. These accounts are not all identical, but like explorers of an unknown territory, in places where they overlap they seem to match up.
My personal experience of Qigong practice is enough to personally convince me of the existence of what is generally regarded as the Unseen.
The lady’s name in the video which wouldn’t work for me was Pam Reynolds and her case is generally regarded as the greatest NDE of all. As you said, they stopped her heart, emptied her brain of blood, taped her eyelids down and she had loud clicking noises in her ear, yet was able to recount everything that happened and was said by her medical team. She died about 8/10 years ago i think.
A lovely phrase PB: the Unseen.
so does anesthesia contribute to these experiences?
Oh yes, it's why that stuff is abused so much. Sends you on a trip, ask any physician on this list.
I was just thinking that it could cause some of the mental experiences that are associated with a near death experience if and when a person has to have emergency surgery due to a serious health emergency
I would imagine so but I'd ask the doctor too on that one. There might be several sorts of anesthesia available and in combinations and differential doses among them depending on how the surgeon or intervenor I guess determines the situation and then you might have a moving or fluid situation again depending on the circumstances and case. Also the factor of shock and underlying condition including mental state and condition, whether there are already mind-altering chemicals on board to start with, many factors. In the end everything we experiences a matter of perception and neural states as the mediators. What reality is being sampled and to what degree is still mediated by our senses and processes. And yes the term for what I am talking of is yes, the formal definition of "medium," "media," and "mediate." When all of your reality is subject to mediation, it is darn difficult to tell what is really happening and what is not real but perception k of course perception is real too). Think about the movie (film if you are British) Matrix series and it's beginning premise. "Is it real or is it Memorex?" Or as one of our more colorful presidents once said, "It depends on what " is" is. (But I didn't have sexual relations with that woman.)"
it gets complicated
There have been cases when people have left their bodies due to anaesthetic seemingly but it’s not the norm.
youtu.be/WUqZEiu_uSs?si=Qps...
It is pretty normal. What's not as normal (well, "usual") is if you enter somebody else's body on the way back. But I once read that that experience was the inspiration for "Being John Malkevich."
No Marion. It’s NOT normal. Ask your nearest 10 friends if they had an NDE during their operation. Voila. But, make no mistake, anaesthesia is a very odd situation and experience for the human psyche: where do it go during the experience? When I had my DBS, did ‘I’ disappear for 8 hours. Seemingly so.
How are you feeling about your DBS now? You don't talk about it much.
In some ways I’m pleased with it Marc: before I had it done the meds were lasting a spectacularly short time. I could set out on a walk or go to the theatre and would have to call my wife up to rescue me (an additional dose would be wasted due to food being taken for instance). I had to get her to get me out of the bath, I couldn’t turn over in bed and I had to be helped out of bed as well. All of these things have gone largely. So I celebrate it from that angle and am glad I had it done. Conversely, I’m still surprised at how much cl I still take and am no stranger to ‘off’ periods. Oh and the effects on my voice have been cataclysmic. The team created a voice channel which allows an improvement but they don’t like me using it much: the channel which screws my voice up has more capacity to ameliorate my other physical symptoms. What’s a guy to do eh?!
How’s yourself?
Adam,
I'm OK. As well as can be expected. Could be better. May be at the tipping point. Could be worse. We could always be worse. But, I am hanging in there, thanks for asking.
Marc
In my emails your post says ‘I was pretty normal’, but here it says ‘It is pretty normal’. Curiouser and curiouser!
On another related note: on my Binaural Beats page, rbd-pd-protocols.blogspot.c... , I have 3 audio books, that deal with the afterlife, with binaural beats added to them:
Elementary Theosophy - L. W. Rogers - Gamma
Evolution of Symbolism - Helena Petrovna Blavatsky - Gamma
The Rosicrucian Mysteries - Max Heindel - Gamma
Thanks Bolt.
So then you ask the biggest question of all time. Is there any proof, is there any evidence ? Yes there is , but you have dismissed it previously so probably will not accept it, right at this time, but maybe someday. It flys past you in a flock of birds . It waits silently as you and your wife sit and watch the sunset. It stands as an intricate part of a world that feeds both your physical self and metaphysical self and it does not require any justification it is in art, in family, in friendship , in love , In knowledge , in caring and in Gods grace and when you finally understand not to treat it like a scientific event that must be defined , labeled and agreed upon by a majority and realize that it is a personal belief , an understanding between you and only you and your God, that you believe but will never prove to the satisfaction of others and that it does not matter if you can prove it or not . Then you will be in a finer place my friend , Look at the universe , how many various forms of life, how many millions of years to form a situation conducive to life. What are the odds that this thing called life can prevail against so many forces by being alone and on its own, with nothing.
There are so many religions and maybe the devil is in the details , hahahahahaha or maybe not and it somehow matters how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I doubt it. Just try to be happy and kind and sharing as possible and watch what unfolds. We are on a slippery slope called life, some are enjoying the long slide , some are not. Pay it forward my friend, and watch closely for the coincidences and opportunities to make a difference and the proof you need will be discovered in unlikely places .
To start, Be happy ,
An afterlife would be entirely counter productive to this life. Death gives birth to life as does up to down, left to right, hot to cold, pole to counter-pole. If I honestly thought I would live on forever I could step out in front of an articulated lorry at 60mph with no consequences. This belief in the possibility of life after death has been exploited down the centuries by the rich and powerful to maintain their position within a so-called civilised society.
Apologies in advance if this view offends but it is truth as I see it!
secrets22• in reply to
but as you say, only your truth.
• in reply tosecrets22
Yes, a truth that I'm prepared to debate! Are you?
secrets22• in reply to
I would not debate with you because Health Unlocked is intended to be a kind caring forum and not somewhere to slate people who are suffering major depression and anxiety or other illnesses, or who might have differing views from you, it costs nothing to be nice.
• in reply tosecrets22
Oh I entirely agree with you regarding the purpose of Health Unlocked, why do you think I'm on here? It is a forum for serious answers to serious questions regarding serious health issues, not people attempting to sell false hope based on mythology. I remember the guy asserting he had cured his Parkinson's through prayer. I challenged him also and he wouldn't debate either. I gave my honest sincere answer to Jeeves question and you had to intervene with a puerile put down which you appear not to be able to justify!
secrets22• in reply to
I do not have to justify myself to you simply because you just want to argue and bicker, and i prefer to avail myself of the many good people who I've come to respect on HU over many years. And to now say i made a puerile put down is really stretching things, nothing of the sort.
Gymsack• in reply to
But you are not here you are hidden , just a ghost of someone that used to be here.
Ouch!! That's telling her, yeah, tell her to shut up. That's what health unlocked is here for I guess. So we can use our problems to beat other people over the head. Get those wrong thinking people to be more right thinking people. Peurile, have to look that one up. But first I have to learn to spell it.
park_bear• in reply to
Yep. My writing, here:
Scientific Materialism Fails as a Theory of Consciousness
GigiOf8• in reply to
Sorry. It seems you’ve placed your mind in a box? Our energy expands beyond the poles and no man or amount of money can hold any of it in his hand. Let alone in his control. It is faith that moves mountains and a belief that there is a higher than power.
• in reply toGigiOf8
I have faith but recognise that faith per se represents a leap into the dark. Some gain comfort from it and that's fine, people can believe whatever they want but if they try to sell it to me then expect to be challenged on the basis for that belief. Blind faith is and has been exploited down the millennia to set traps for the vulnerable.
I'd say it is countless millions to one that what you believe is wrong! I have faith that scientists will eventually find a root cause and cure for Parkinson's Disease and other such illnesses and in that I am probably safer in my Kierkegaardian step!
MarionP• in reply to
Please, don't refer to it as death. I prefer "room temperature." Does all those things you mentioned, and it seems a little kinder and gentler a term.
poetryfoundation.org/poems/...
room temperature here can be cold
I believe in guardian angels, and twice i have put myself in grave danger, and this was in my salad days, the most extraordinary thing happened on the most noticeable encounter , I was running blindly towards who knows where, when suddenly a hand reached out and physically held me fast, had that not happened within seconds i would have fallen a great height over cliffs, and would without doubt died.
• in reply tosecrets22
Interesting, you attempt to rubbish my thoughts in what might be interpreted as a belief in an afterlife and yet here you paint a picture of the terrible consequences of an early death! Maybe you could clear up the ambiguity?
secrets22• in reply to
how on earth have i rubbished your thoughts, you need to reread my comment......and apologise.
• in reply tosecrets22
"but as you say, only your truth" the operative word being ONLY.
Quite apart from representing a feeble attempt to isolate me as a minority of one, it is literally untrue, very many people share my thoughts!
Now are you going to clarify your mixed messages regarding your subsequent post about the "Guardian Angels" that saved you from the horror of an early death. If you believe in an afterlife, as your post here appears to suggest, why would an early death matter?
Guardian Angels haven't been the same since that idiot Sliwa hijacked them in 1980.
what are salad days and was this when you were a kid?
Yes it means when you were a child and not au fait with the adult world.
wow. And did you actually see this hand?
Jeeves I have no evidence.
I was with my wonderful husband when he passed away peacefully two weeks ago. He didn’t believe in the afterlife. Later I felt his ‘spirits ‘ melt into my body. It was a strange feeling and it’s probably my imagination but I feel stronger for it and gratefully accept it x
I'm sorry for your loss.
The afterlife is a valid question as part of understanding why humans exist and how created. As nothing else can prove where we came from, or what we are part of, then theories of a spiritual world are as, if not more, valid as any other.
I'm convinced we're the only species that thinks about death and therefore fears it. I've read several books on the subject of NDE's. One guy had two of such. One while on a ship and a second while hiking. I read several cases of people in near-fatal accidents who claim to have been visited by dead relatives offering suggestions. One was a woman who fell while mountain-climbing. With massive injuries she crawled to get help, never feeling any pain in her broken bones. A man who had been born in an orphanage and never had any family. He said a glowing orb appeared and helped him to survive being lost in the Arizona Desert.
I experimented with Ketamine when I was younger. I injected myself with ketamine IV. I had a sort of out-of-body experience of floating above the room looking down at myself as the room dissolved and then I was in a spaceship above the earth. As the drug wore off I wondered if I was dying and if someone from work would come to see why I never made it in. I felt like so much time had passed that it must be night and I wondered why I could still see sun shining outside. I felt like the ketamine had lasted more than 24 hours but when I was able to check my watch found the trip had lasted less than an hour.
The point is our minds can tell us whatever we need to know but that doesn't mean it's the truth.
How dare you be rational sir.
By the way that IV sounds pretty good, could you get me some of it? Going up to Mayo late August early September for annuals, I could stop in on the way.
if you are a saved Christian then yes
Tom Campbell who wrote My Big TOE Trilogy (Theory of Everything) has a physics background and used the scientific method to experiment with ‘out of body’ experiences, and after decades of checking things out came up with a theory on how to explain both ‘objective’ and subjective experience including normal and paranormal experience- hence calling it a Big Theory of Everything since it took subjective experience into account too when coming up with a theory on how the universe works. He encourages you to train your mind and learn to explore yourself rather than believe or not believe him. There is lots out there for ‘right’ brained people but his approach is designed for ‘left’ brained who do not come to this type of experience naturally. (Left and right in quotes because it is not that simple and used as a metaphor. Tom Campbell relies heavily on metaphors to try to explain this theory. ) Mentioned in case this very intriguing and satisfying rabbit hole catches your interest.
Physics is extremely attractive but there's a problem or risk there in that, just with neurology and medicine and psychology, one can grow attached to the somehow satisfying mechanical aspect and mistake it for an answer to the larger question. Kind of like getting "how" and "why" confused. I'm developed a natural suspicion of such attraction because I'm vulnerable to it, especially these days when we can describe it in quantum mechanical terms of the properties of the subatomic particles, someday we'll be particular enough to link up the biochemistry to the quantum level effects and then we'll really be in trouble when we get to the end of that and find out it still doesn't lead us to where some of us are really asking about.
Check out this site. nderf.org/index.htm
I have already but thanks 🙏.
I look at the creation around us, i look at our human bodies and their intricate designs, I look at the various systems in the universe, I look at the earth With the perfect amount of gravity and distance from the sun for human survival. I look at all that and I see that there’s a Designer..a Creator. Nothing is just by chance. Therefore, I believe that we’re all on earth for a purpose. There’s more to life than just what we see. The Creator has given the Bible to us, explaining the beginning of life, how humankind has messed it up and not followed God‘s way and how God has made a way for us to Become right with him through his son Jesus Christ. The Bible also describes the afterlife. “for God, so loved the world that He gave His only Son, whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life“. (John 3:16)
I sometimes have doubts and I wonder if it’s all real and then I’ll look around and see the creator and Designer’s handiwork and remember.
It gives me hope and it gives me peace, knowing that there’s Someone out there looking after me and looking forward to me being with Him in heaven! It helps to know that this life on earth with all its hardships, and illnesses is not all there is to it. There’s better stuff coming where we will have complete healing, and there will be no more tears! Rev 21:4
❤️🙏🏻
I love this! I completely agree! 🩷🙌
this guy is interesting.
youtu.be/ISUynYz93zY?si=eWo...
And read his book the return of the God hypothesis.
also this book is good
amazon.com/Atheism-Dead-Eri...
Also
amazon.com.au/Reason-God-Ti...
Also Lee strobels books, The case for a creator, the case for Christ and others
Far out. I was watching that conversation yesterday. It’s very interesting.
Im part way through it but his book was good.
Personally I can’t understand how anyone can doubt there is a creator. The proof is all around if you study the science. Fair enough to believe evolution before dna, cells, etc were discovered but now it is hard to believe that life came from chemicals which then formed dna and cells then organs and animals. These are all clearly complex organic machines. Humans are trying to prove there isn’t a God by doing experiments in precise environments to create life and haven’t succeeded. How that proves no need for a creator I don’t know as they are spoiling their experiments by playing creator themselves by setting up the experiments!
Really it’s too much to believe, I don’t care if the earth has been here for eternity even, it’s not plausible that these things would eventually evolve. And now with the Big Bang theory saying it’s only been a few billion years I think you’d have to have a lot of faith to be an atheist!
I'm sure it's hard for you to imagine how somebody could look at everything you're looking at and come to the opposite conclusion, and wonder how you managed to find yours since to them it's just as clear that there isn't a senscient creator.
I can understand that many people would find it inconvenient to come to the conclusion that there is a God because that raises difficult issues like what one should do about it and to wonder what the God thinks of them so it is easier not to question too deeply. Especially if they have held a lifelong position that it is all nonsense.
I do find it hard to understand that anyone who has delibrately gone about trying to find God and examining evidence in nature and the cosmos would come to the conclusion that everything is the result of chance.
I guess if atheists are right we will never know but if they are wrong they will soon find out.
Personally I think it is such an important thing, maybe the most important thing to get right, as the consequence of taking the wrong stance could be the worst mistake of one’s life.
it’s (almost) never too late to re-examine the evidence. There are new findings regularly and they all point to an intelligent designer.
From what NDEs say on the whole, whether you’re a believer or not we all get the same treatment when we ‘go over’. I DO believe that in God but seemingly our atheist friends appear to get quite the surprise and are often changed as a result of their experience.
I have seen some that have rather an unpleasant experience.
Very true. In fact I watched one this morning who was a devout Mormon. I can’t explain this.
Along with a God there is also a evil being who deceives people into believing in false paths to find God. The Bible says there is only one way to find God, and that is through Jesus.
John14:6. Jesus said"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can get to the Father except by me".
Believing there is a God is not enough. Even the devil knows there is a God. You must ask for forgiveness for all of your sins. Pray this prayer"
Lord Jesus Christ
I am truly sorry for the things I have done wrong in my life. Please forgive me. I now turn from everything that I know is wrong.
Thank you that you died on the cross for me so that I could be forgiven and set free.
Thank you that you offer me forgiveness and the gift of your Holy Spirit.
Please come into my life by your Holy Spirit to be with me for ever.
Thank you, Lord Jesus.
AMEN"
Then get a bible, I have the Message version, and read it. Start with the book of John and the books of the New testament, and join a church that teaches based on the bible.
‘Nobody comes to the father except through me’. I suspect Jesus meant ‘nobody who doesn’t act in the way I showed you gets to the father’. Otherwise, Gandhi, The Buddha, Lao Tze and Eckhart Tolle - when his time comes - are all supping with the devil as we speak. This morning I watched a young Christian being interviewed who’d just lost his job through his fundamental views. He seemed like a nice kid but kept insisting that ‘all adulterers should be executed’. The interviewer kept asking him if he really thought this to which he kept repeating ‘it’s what it says in the bible’. You could tell he didn’t really believe this, but wouldn’t leave what the bible ‘taught him’ like a child clutching a blanket that comforted him. I also recall when a certain young trouble making Jew was asked whether an immoral woman should be stoned to which he replied as he made shapes in the sand with his finger (I love this detail) ‘ye who are free from sin, cast the first stone’.
If you want to find out more in a non threatening environment try finding an Alpha course in your area.
It is sensible to investigate the facts and ask any questions you have before dismissing the idea of a God. You want to get it right surely. If you are an atheist you can raise all your objections too.
LajThat video was interesting. You seem to have a few references to this area. Would you recommend the most succinct book discussing the inherent flaws of science's explanation of existence.
I liked Steven Meyers book "return of the god hypothesis" and also Eric Metaxas " Is atheism dead?"They are both quite long but convincing reads
When you get there don't forget to write.
thanks for asking such a profound question inviting such responses 
I have two experiences to share concerning the afterlife involving dreams. I’ve only had a couple friends die so far in my life. One died about 10 years ago, probably from a heart attack, perhaps involving drugs. I dreamt of him for or several months after he passed. In several dreams, I became lucid, realizing I was dreaming , and that I was speaking with him. I asked him “you realize you’re dead?” He said yes, of course. I asked him what is it like. He responded “just like life’. we were hanging out in a party situation, drinking and eating. I noticed that over the course of the months of dreams, he became fatter, and I also noticed that his feet started to disappear . in one dream I actually asked him to provide me with some proof that I was actually speaking with him, rather than just making this up in my own mind. He thought about it a minute and said well stay here, hold on and went away. My sister then woke me up! I was so pissed at her. But I realized that somehow maybe we’re not supposed to get exact proof of such things. Faith is important. My last dream of him I was driving him to the airport. he got on an airplane, and then I never dreamt of him again. Afterwards, I was speaking with a friend and I said I’ve been dreaming of Craig. My friend said yeah I have too. We’re hanging out at parties. The weird thing is his feet disappear!
my second dream experience involves a different friend who died in a car accident. I dreamt of him shortly after his death, swimming in a pool. He got out of the pool and walked towards me - very clearly I saw him. His smile was like larger than life ., a few days later, I saw his mother. I asked her if she had had any dreams of Ari. She replied “he’s just swimming back-and-forth back-and-forth in a pool with Matthew, a boy who drowned when they were seven years old! By the way, I’ve never swam with Ari. I had no experience with him personally in a pool, and thought it was very unique that that element was so big in my dream.
Thanks so much for sharing this 😊
Interesting comments, this study from England indicates a correlation btw PD and religion.
I have witnessed remarkable strength and courage in folks who have overcome and/or lived with chronic illness almost always the have a strong faith. This kind of faith actually draws me to them.
Thank you Sidney75 very interesting
Jeeves take a look at the link above , something else at play
Hi Adam,
I don't know if this qualifies for this thread, but I went to a friends funeral out of state and I fell asleep on a sofa in his den. His brother in law was asleep on another sofa in the den. I was laying on my side facing the back of the sofa so I could not see what was happening in the room. Something woke me up, even though I was very tired. I felt the presence of somebody enter the room but thought it was my friend's brother in law and gave it no thought for awhile.
Then I felt the presence of somebody leaning over me, but not touching me and my eyes were closed as I intended to go back to sleep. Above the sofa where I was laying, there were several plaques with sayings or prayers. All of a sudden one of the plaques on the wall felt like it was tossed from a lower level than it was hanging, and from the room side of the sofa. It didn't fall straight down, it fell between my body and the front of the sofa. I thought it was my friends brother in law playing around. So I sat up and looked and he was still asleep and there was no one else there. I looked at the plaque that had fallen at least two feet from the wall and it said, "I thanked God for you today!" I felt something in that moment which I could not describe in words. I took the plaque and looked for the hook on the sofa thinking the hook must have come off from the wall and also fallen onto the sofa, but there was no hook.
When I looked at the wall where the plaque had been hanging, the hook was still there and properly fastened to the wall. I rehung the plaque on the hook, but I was never able to figure out how it could have fallen at least two feet from the wall instead of straight down as it should have, nor could I figure out how it had fallen in the first place.
Well that was my experience and for me, I felt it was my friend telling me goodbye in his own thoughtful way, since I was not able to be there before he died, but of course I can not prove it!
Art
When I was young and going to school I worked for about 6 months at a nursing home on the night shift. I was working as an aide. There was a woman there who was not expected to survive and her breathing was very labored for several days. At that point in time I had never been present when someone had passed away. The RN in charge wanted me to come in and help her with the lady. The woman took her last breath shortly after we entered the room. To be honest I was a little afraid of being in this situation but right then it felt like there was a glow of light in the room.
Thanks 🙏
I don’t think so …I’m old enough and ugly enough. Thanks for all the lol’s x
A while back somehow I got hit in the eye with a rock. I'm not sure but I think it was a philosopher's stone some disappointed owner threw out.
Have a look at dontdie.com. Plenty to contemplate .
youtu.be/otrqzITuSqE?si=ACZ...
God or Science? We can have both.
If you talk about afterlife, we have to ask the question, does God exist?
John Lennox is a great speaker on this subject.
What I like about him, is that he talks so respectfully to those with opposing views.
Yes, John is a real gem and afraid to get into the ring with Dawkins.
I doubt that. The evidence speaks for itself.
Apologies. I should’ve said ‘not afraid’
Not a problem at all You really know how to get people talking! You could host your own talk show😄
😂😂 you mean before PD stole my voice?!
😅 well let's just you do well with what you have.
Watch this for laugh. It’s only just over a minute I think
youtu.be/jaGLDKBE8Ho?si=xNo...
🤣That's hilarious!! He seems like such a nice guy!
I agree 😊
I was a veterinarian for over 40 years. I often wondered about the life and death of my four-legged patients. And if "All dogs go heaven", well then there you go...
I had a patient named Bosco. He was a Golden Retriever-Beagle cross. He had the long, flowing locks of a Golden but was the size of a Beagle. The owner said he bites and has to be put down. The back story was he bit a child who had been pulling his fur out.
I drew up up the euthanasia solution. It was a new medication, one I'd never used before. In hospitals it was used to paralyze the diaphragm just long enough to insert a breathing tube for anesthesia.
He sat quietly as I shaved the arm. Then I wiped the arm with alcohol. That probably seems foolish considering what comes next. But alcohol raises the vein. Then I injected the medicine, His eyes went wide. He stared at me open-mouthed , unable to breathe. His face said it all, "I'm sorry I bit the boy. I'll be good. I promise. Please, please, please..."
It was only moments but seemed like a lifetime as I watched his face relax.
Then the light went out of his eyes and he was gone.
So if there's a heaven Bosco is up there now and someday I'll be up there too and can apologize to him for ending his life.
But there's no heaven.
Nothing that couldn't be explained away as coincidence. And for a time, I tried out that "model", but I just couldn't make it work. I couldn't accept that everything I had ever seen, heard, or experienced throughout my life was due to nothing but chance.
I suspect you didn't describe your mystical experience for a reason, but I would love to hear about it if you ever decide to share (publicly or privately).
Try this book. I haven’t read this but have read some of his others which were good
amazon.com/Case-Heaven-Jour...
Read it. Pretty good 👍. I’d endorse 😊
And this
. Christianity basically formed the basis of the Western moral system.. Prior to this was quite the opposite.
This thread is too long and too interesting to me. I propose we start a zoom just talking about this topic because I think that could be an endless and very fruitful conversation. I propose Tuesdays, and am happy to provide my zoom link. Please chat to me if interested. For me, the topic of reincarnation and past lives is ever fascinating .... confession, I could not read this whole thread and badly wanted to.
Thanks for the offer. It’s difficult to know though what we’d aim to achieve? It’d be a bit embarrassing if we started and it petered out after a couple of weeks. I’m not saying definitely NO but I’m not sure. Many would sign up. Have you got many so far?
There is not much tolerance here for different thoughts on religion or belief but then there is not much anywhere anymore . Most forum websites are gathering places to support a singular interest , example "boat building" which includes discussion on many types and sizes of boats and many methods and has some well discussed differing preferences to each . Any statement about religion met a quick ending and was erased.
I think it may be caused in part by evangelico components where several established religions with a few common interests give out points to be a member or get into heaven or obtain the way out of purgatory or hell by bringing in new members or saving a soul by conversion .
My own personal efforts over the years to get enough Kindness Points to obtain a " Get Out of Hell Free Card " may have come up short and I have run out of time .
Moving to a different venu will not change anything .
Peace be with you.
Kindness points are not the way fortunately. And it's never too late!crossway.org/articles/10-ke.... Ephesians 2:8–9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Never mind whether you get to heaven. A kindness is always enriching for everyone. Those giving, and receiving, and collateral damage
I don't think it needs to have an achievement in mind beyond having company of people who also enjoy this topic. And if it petered out I would not be embarrasses at all. Such conversations can have a life all their own I find.
I am currently being tested for the second time for Parkinson's Disease, the first time was negative, reaction to an Epilepsy drug, Epilim, I had severe shaking of the hands, this time due to other symptoms, besides Essential Tremors, I have been diagnosed chronically terminally ill, broken skull, brain damage, and severe rib cage structure "untreatable". I was born in Northern Ireland, and affected like most people here by the "Troubles" but have found that the Province so set firmly in the belief of "R-E-L-I-G-I-ON" the younger generation is now seeking change, alternatives to their particular 'brought up' mode of belief, I myself am a #######c. BUT even two thousand years ago people were searching for an "afterlife" I'm afraid there is not much 'concrete' evidence either way, even now what AI tries to tell you🤔 Sorry jeeves19👌
Did you take your tooth out?!
Not one of the best emoji's 🤔is meant to mean "interesting"? Either way [actually had a large tooth out left upper molar, five weeks ago🤨] not a great follower of AI !
In July 2017 I tried suicide for the first time, overdose of pills, before I passed out I saw a very bright light, and a tremendous feeling of calmness and well being, I awoke later, puked up pills, I have been taking pills, never a healthy bunny all my life, so system used to them, but a tremendous feeling of realisation, that what I believed in was right for me. In July 2021, in Hospital, just after been told, after CT scan, "the next seizure you have will probably be your last!" aged 67 had epilepsy since 14, had over 400 seizures. Later a fellow patient in the ward, barked up, "We are all Christians?" I put my hand up "No, I am an agnostic!" slowly, but surely clapping, even cheers all around the ward, as if a dark cloud had been lifted, there is hope for Northern Ireland yet👌
You’ve had it tough brother without a doubt. Harder than most. Hard to know if the light was a reaction to drugs or ‘the light’. Some people argue that it’s the brain being starved of oxygen causing the tunnel, but then I always think is the explanation for being met by people who’d previously died the same oxygen deprivation? Somehow I doubt it.
Sometimes music expresses it best
Near-death is not the same as death, just as almost pregnant is not the same as being pregnant.
For every aspect of the near-death experience (NDE), there is a reasonable explanation from brain research. An out-of-body experience can be induced by stimulating the temporal lobe, which is very sensitive to oxygen deprivation. If the processing of information from the muscles, the sense of balance, and vision is disrupted here, you get the feeling of leaving your body and floating. By stimulating the hypothalamus, you can relive events from 30 years ago as if your life is flashing before your eyes. The feeling of peace, tranquility, and the disappearance of pain during an NDE is caused by the release of opioid-like substances, and the perception of a tunnel is based on reduced blood flow to the eyeball.
Various hospitals are trying to gather evidence for the out-of-body experience during an NDE. 'Codes' have been placed high on shelves, but as expected, 'out-of-body' patients have not been able to tell what was on top of the shelf. All in all, there is no reason to see NDE as evidence for perception outside of the brain or as evidence of experiencing something from an afterlife. Those patients have never been in the afterlife. 😇
60 years ago, near death was death. What you need is a good talking from by a sensible Dutchman (see below)
This sensitive Dutchman Pim van Lommel has written a very interesting book but is scientifically flawed. He was dissected by the well-known Dutch brain specialist Dick Swaab, whom I consider to be more credible. Here is a response to van Lommel:
« Near-death cannot exist. »
« Brain research provides a reasonable explanation for all aspects of a near-death experience (NDE). There is nothing mystical about it.
After all the publicity surrounding the book by cardiologist Van Lommel, everyone knows what near-death experiences (NDEs) are. They occur when our brain experiences a lack of oxygen, intense fear, or chemical substances. Twenty percent of people report feeling a sense of peace and tranquility, with the disappearance of pain, after a cardiac arrest. Sometimes, they feel like they are leaving their own body and observing themselves from outside. They may also enter a tunnel at high speed from a dark space, with a bright light at the end. Sometimes, they see deceased friends and relatives or a familiar religious figure, and they may witness their own life flashing before their eyes. And all of this happens in less than a minute.
Van Lommel's contribution is that in 2001, he detailed what people claim to have experienced during an NDE in The Lancet, making this phenomenon discussable in the medical world. However, NDEs leave such a profound impression on many people that they are not interested in explanations from brain research. They believe they have glimpsed the afterlife and prefer to focus on spiritual and religious matters for the rest of their lives.
Unfortunately, Van Lommel gets carried away by his patients' belief in paranormal explanations for NDEs and presents pseudoscientific interpretations, which are popular and contribute to the book's fantastic sales. He categorically rejects any neurobiological explanation for NDEs and presents a theory that explains not only NDEs but also all spiritual and paranormal phenomena, including predictive dreams, reincarnation, long-distance perception, and telekinesis. According to him, consciousness is not produced by the brain as we, "narrow-minded, materialistic, reductionist brain researchers," think. No, according to Van Lommel, consciousness is "everywhere in the universe" and is received by the brain "like a radio or a TV receives a program."
Van Lommel claims that thoughts do not have a material basis. Apparently, he is unaware of recent experiments that demonstrate the opposite. Someone with an amputated arm can control a computer mouse or a prosthetic arm through equipment that registers the electrical activity of nerve cells using their thoughts. So, the "radio" (the brain) creates the program, precisely the opposite of Van Lommel's belief.
Van Lommel argues that his spiritual theory is necessary because he believes there is not enough storage capacity in our brain for long-term memory. This is nonsense. Van Lommel seems unaware that Eric Kandel received the Nobel Prize in 2000 for describing how short- and long-term memories are formed at the molecular level. He also claims that there is not enough information present in the organism for our embryonic development and immune responses. According to him, all that information is stored in the universe. Once again, Van Lommel does not seem to know that the Nobel Prize was awarded in 1995 for the discovery of genes involved in early embryonic development, and in 1987, Tonegawa received the Nobel Prize for discovering how our body produces a vast diversity of antibodies. Furthermore, Van Lommel suggests that DNA is not the carrier of hereditary information but merely the receiver of this information from consciousness in the universe. It is unthinkable that Watson and Crick received the Nobel Prize in 1962 for deciphering the genetic code of DNA unjustly. Dismissing four Nobel Prizes without any scientific arguments marks the definitive end of the scientific aspirations of this book. Therefore, it is quite appropriate that it was baptized in a Reformed Church in Velp and not in an academic institution.
Van Lommel repeatedly claims that an NDE cannot be caused by a lack of oxygen in the brain because, he says, then everyone would have had an NDE during a cardiac arrest. However, he forgets that a longer duration of oxygen deprivation damages memory, and one cannot remember an NDE anymore. Van Lommel's study also shows that some people are simply more susceptible to experiencing an NDE than others. Van Lommel also rejects the idea that oxygen deprivation causes an NDE because intense stress induces the same experience. However, the stress hormone cortisol and the response of the brain's stress systems can explain the altered functioning of the brain under those circumstances perfectly well. How does Van Lommel know with such certainty that all brain activity disappears during unconsciousness? EEG measures only the activity of the upper part of the cerebral cortex. Moreover, during a cardiac arrest, the time between normal brain functioning and unconsciousness is sufficient for an NDE to occur, both before and after the onset of unconsciousness. This is the same time period during which Dostoevsky had his "endless" experiences during a temporal lobe (= sleep lobe) epilepsy attack. The possibility that an NDE can occur during the recovery from unconsciousness is supported by the fact that people sometimes feel like they snap back into their bodies when resuscitation is successful.
There is a good explanation from brain research for every aspect of the NDE. An out-of-body experience can be induced by stimulation of the temporal lobe, which is very sensitive to oxygen deprivation. If the processing of information from the muscles, the balance system, and vision is disrupted here, you get the feeling of leaving your body and floating. By stimulating the hypothalamus, you can relive events from 30 years ago as if your life is flashing before your eyes. The feeling of peace and tranquility and the disappearance of pain during an NDE are caused by the release of opiate-like substances, and seeing a tunnel is due to reduced blood flow to the eyeball.
Van Lommel is, of course, free to put forward spiritual theories. His ideas are not new either. They have existed for thousands of years in many cultures, mystical movements, and religions. However, he should not deceive people with a subtitle that promises a "scientific view of the NDE." What is also unacceptable is that as a doctor, he scares people into not donating their organs for transplantation. It is astonishing that he presents the nonsense stories that the recipient of a transplanted organ would acquire character traits from the donor as truths. Although Van Lommel claims in principle not to be against organ transplantation, he unnecessarily frightens potential donors and their families. »
Dick Swaab is a professor of neurobiology at the University of Amsterdam. He is affiliated with the Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience.
Like I said, I’ll see you (and Dick) over there one day 😊. We can carry on the discussion there! Pimm is just one evidential representative whose testimony I have read over many years. Other contributors have been Peter Fenwick, Eben Alexander, Sam Parnia, Michael Sabom. All good clinicians who were skeptics before they examined the evidence.
Look on the bright side, you might be pleasantly surprised. 🤔😊
Here at HU, I prefer to focus on scientific insights, such as those from the mentioned Swaab. By the way, Van Lommel had no response to that. I like to be surprised, although I don't hope for eternal life. That must be the same as what they threaten in the Bible and also refer to as hell 😅.
Maybe VL had no response as he sighed and thought ‘what’s the point?’
It appears that you are referring to Pim Van Lommel. He wrote his book "Consciousness Beyond Life" with the subtitle "The Science of the Near-Death Experience". As a scientist, he should have been able to refute Van Swaab's criticism, but he was unable to do so. If, nevertheless, you believe in a near-death experience, as many would like to because it may suggest the existence of an afterlife, let us hope that a cure for Parkinson's has been found over there. After all, no one deserves to live with PD for eternity. 🕊️
I’ll see you on the other side one day!
it’s interesting how atheists with no proof can believe out of nothing came the universe and everything in it, poof! just by itself without any external influence. Then from chemicals came life eventually after a few billions of years.
Yet they can’t believe a recently alive body might be able to come back to life. I know what requires stronger faith.
Having said that I am not sure about NDEs, so I’m not sure they are proof of anything.
By limiting the discussion to just atheists and Christians, as often happens on HU, we fail to acknowledge the diversity and complexity of human beliefs and the rich tapestry of ideas about the afterlife that exist worldwide.
yes, even the concept that there is an afterlife and a life was introduced as a control mechanism "if you don't obey we will come and get you even after you are dead and take you to hell", a powerful message, but no one believed it, so they invented the Inquisition of torquemada .😁🤷🏻♂️
Buddhism had overcome this with reincarnation , present among other things in the first Christians who were fed to the lions in the Colosseum for entertainment.
Then the Roman Empire fell into ruin having repudiated the founding principles that had made it great.
Almost like in today's cinema, violence as spectacle.🤔
Greetings from Italy
Qualcosa è andato storto con la foto Esperanto 🤷🏻♂️😃
Giardini
For pantheists, nature is not just a physical entity but also a profound source of spiritual connection and appreciation. Your stunning photos have ignited a deep longing within us for more. 🙂 However, my hiking trip through the Orobie Alps has hit a snag due to my mother's hospitalization. As soon as circumstances permit, I will swiftly hop on the bus to embark on my long-awaited hike.
I am sorry for your mother.
Ok, it seems like I'm a bit obsessed with photos from Italy, but in reality that's all I have at the moment. I would also like to publish photos from other countries and I always hope that others will do so, the aim is to beautify and make this forum more interesting.
They say that space comes from the ability of the point of view to look at an object, so I am happy to have contributed to increasing your space with the idea of distant places that you can reach and look at.
Greetings From Italy , Como lake and others places.
Points of view.
my sister sent me this video this morning. So powerful! I burst out crying in the middle of it. I thought to share it with all of you peace, Julie.
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