Hi all, just sharing an update on my latest statin scenario. Had Nstemi and quadruple bypass in July 2023, was rehabbing really well physically. About 4-5 months post surgery I noticed I was getting a lot of aches and pains that were making me feel really low, joint and muscle aches , thumbs and finger joints really hurts, I was getting very fatigued in the afternoons, felt vacant , struggled to walk my Lurcher, felt cold .. the list went on. My blood pressure would drop from 115/75 to 100/60 by the afternoon.I stopped doing my 5k running I felt so rough. GP agreed to stop taking 80mg artovastatin for a trial period , it ended up a month. I felt great after a few days and resumed my training . GP started me on 40mg Pravastatin (didn’t do a cholesterol test 🤷) and after a a couple of weeks I started feeling rough again … I felt so rotten I tried to get a telephone call with my GP to discuss but git fobbed off by the reception/admin staff . Managed to speak to my pharmacist and she was as dismayed as me, she said to stop taking the statin and she would report it all back to the GP. Got an appointment with GP, fasting blood test showed increase in general cholesterol from 2.4 up to 4.5 , so prescribed 10mg Rosuvastatin with a view to increasing the dose if needed after next blood test in June. Within a week I noticed joint pains in my fingers /thumbs coming back , an episode of blood pressure dropping back to 100/60 and the zombie effect for an evening ( not daily at the moment).
I’m obviously concerned that if the dose increases the side effects may well increase..
I have read posts on the benefits of vit K2 (mk7) and vit D3 with interest and I’m really considering supplementing anyway.
Is there a particular trusted brand and dose level that fellow hearties would recommend, so many companies out there promoting their own product.
Grateful for any steer. I know Instructor has done a lot of due diligence on this , grateful for his and everyone’s contribution to some previous posts 👍🏻
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DWizza
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Following as I always have leg muscle issues. Not sure if it is statins or another med I take. I stopped taking Atorvastatin and now on Rosuvastatin. Still getting leg issues - affecting my running big time
The majority of people taking statins (90%+), including me, will experience no side effects from taking statins. The next group will find they experience side effects with one or more statin but then find one where they have no side effects, or at least they are tolerable. The last group cannot tolerate statins at all, and the NHS* caters for this group under it's 'Statin Intolerance Pathway', which your GP should follow, under which alternative medication like Ezetimibe can be prescribed. If you search online for this there is a pdf available which covers this. *The separate devolved UK countries may have slightly different pathways but they are all based on the same principle.
Interesting. I have a few comments to make which I wouldn't blame you for thinking are not helpful but hear me out
For a kick off I really don't think Atorvastatin will be responsible for making you feel cold. Sure it has side effects, but I have never heard of this one before, it's more likely to be other meds like bisoprolol which I think you are on reading your other posts briefly. For me it was very detrimental and my GP took me off it but that's just me I'm not advocating you do, but if you are trying to exercise as in 5K's it may be hindering rather than helping, it certainly made me feel cold and, as you say, like a Zombie.
I have (thought) I was also suffering from various aches and pains, including a tight feeling in my chest, and have been through the whole gamut of trying diet only, a few supplements, and every Statin on the market including Ezitemebe (which was useless and made my cholesterol go back to pre-event days). Upshot of it all is I am now back on Atorvastatin and running to a decent level especially for my age, and I actually now think that most of the problems were either in my head or due to my age and exercise intensity. Sure you can feel like your problems are over when you stop taking it but that could very likely be a placebo effect, trust me. It does still give me a feeling of tightness in my chest but I just live with it even though it can mimic what you could imagine is Angina (It isn't BTW).
I think the blood pressure problems are also unlikely to be the Statin, but definitely the Beta Blocker, that's part of what they are designed to do. I had a meeting with a GP who I knew was also a runner following which he took me off both the Beta blocker and the blood pressure meds (I never had high blood pressure anyway it's just part of the "package"), and felt fantastic afterwards, which enabled me to get running properly which in my opinion is far more beneficial.
At the end of the day you need to get your Cholesterol down, somehow. I am prescribed 80mg but my GP is happy for me to drop it to 40 if I start to get a few aches, but I still believe 90% of the problems are just down to my activities. If I were you I would press for a meeting with someone who can be sympathetic to your needs, rather than asking people on here including me who are not qualified to recommend types of medication or doses!
Nobody can give qualified medical advice on a forum, its just suggestions the poster may or may not want to look into. However I do have a medical physics degree from a top 3 UK University and lectured in CT and MRI design for many years at a prestigious University.
Ezetimibe is not a statin , it's a selective cholesterol-absorption inhibitor.
The poster has written on numerous occasions about muscle and joint pains from taking statins , which is a well documented side effect (unfortunately)
Pravastatin and Rosuvastatin are both hydrophilic statins , so are less likely to cause issues with muscles. It maybe that the poster is Statin intolerant, or it may not be, only his doctors can diagnose such a condition.
It should also be noted that Statins and Ezetimibe are both pleio-tropic drugs meaning that they have multiple pathways in which to reduce plaque, reducing cholesterol is just one of the pathways.
Yes not well worded I am aware Ezetimibe is not a Statin. Also worth noting however, neither that or Statins reduce plaque. Statins may stabilise it, but sadly for us with CHD they won't reverse the build up, just help to slow what is a progressive disease. I think they might shrink unstable plaque by stabilising it, but then again they might not, but that's the nature of things seemingly, no one seems really sure.
There is research that suggests plaque can be reduced. For example:
Conclusions: Compared with statin monotherapy, combination therapy with ezetimibe further reduced LDL-C levels. Significant plaque volume reduction was achieved by the combination therapy, but not statin monotherapy; however, plaque stabilization was similarly achieved by both therapies. Furthermore, reduction in plaque volume was dependent on reduction in LDL-C, regardless of whether it was achieved by statin alone or statin plus ezetimibe.
Thanks , I have tried to get in front of someone sympathetic to my needs , GP & consultant. Both appear to be fans of cookie cutter practices. I have mentioned to my pharmacist that I couldn’t understand why my BP was dropping when bsck on the statin , she said it shouldn’t be the statin but she couldn’t authorise me to stop taking my 1.25mg Bisoprolol and half a 1.25mg Ramipril.. my resting HR prior to surgery was always on high 49s to low 50s, I constantly set the alarm off on hospital as it dropped below 50bpm.
The pains that come on are not caused by training , I know DOMs and his my body reacts to a lifetime of training /competing. The blanket aches and general shut down is different. Never had any issue with tightness in my chest either , no anxiety , not opened the GNT . I have written to my consultant (at lical hospital, not where I was treated) and she hasn’t helped much either , just said that she thinks doing very well and we all get afternoon slumps 🤣.. I was t getting them with the other effects previously, they stopped for a month , then came back . I am not against or averse to taking statins, just don’t want the zombie episodes that appear to accompany this cocktail of meds. I’d be happy to trial stopping the bisoprolol and tiny dose ramipril..
With regards to asking for peoples experiences with vitamin K2 and D3 , I see no problem in sharing this type of information . What I do with it will be my responsibility, I’ll look at it , assess it then decide a course of action.
Well, Statins aside, it appears you might be in the same category as myself. It is common knowledge that we are prescribed the standard "package" that are seemingly given to all patients irrespective of their personal circumstances. I was actually warned about this by a Nurse who I know following discharge. My resting HR like yours was on the low side, in fact mid to low 40's at times. Even now is sometimes falls below 40 when I am really resting, so why I was put on BB's and ramipril is a complete mystery when I never had high BP anyway. As you can imagine I felt absolutely wiped out following just a slow 5K or just a brisk walk (brisk as in 8 min Km's), certainly Zombie is a good word, and I imagine these two meds are causing a lot of your problems. I still cannot imagine the Statins are dropping your blood pressure. I think I was just lucky in having a very sympathetic GP rather than some who dare not question the bag of pills we are discharged with, I would change GP or even practice if at all possible, I know it's easier said than done though. Did you have a HA and if so was your heart undamaged? I had a nearly total LAD blockage but fortunately no HA.
Sounds like we are very similar , had Nstemi and 4xCABG in July 2023. Was told no damage to my heart 🤷… my resting HR is again , similar , has been mid/ upper 40s , the last week bang on 50. I know some meds might get dropped after a year but I doubt they’ll be keen to sack the bisoprolol & ramipril , I will be suggesting it forcefully , at least for a trial period anyway. Grateful for your sharing 👍🏻👊🏻
One thing I forgot to add, Simvastatin and Rosuvastatin both made me feel like a had a permanent hangover, which might not be helping on top of the Bisoprolol.
I don't think the OP would be anywhere near qualifying for a PSCK9 inhibitor, and even if he did it would likely be postcode dependant sadly. He would need to be referred to a lipid clinic anyway, which sounds unlikely from his description of his GP! Bempedoic acid can have some pretty unpleasant side effects as well, and in my experience Ezetimibe had very little effect on lipid levels, which I was not surprised about as it only prevents ingested cholesterol which is not going to make much difference if your diet is good, the liver will just make more.
Last year I started with 10mg Ezetimibe. I had previously been on 80mg Atorvastatin alone and my total cholesterol had been in the range 4.5 to 5 for some time. The addition of the Ezetimibe reduced my total to 3.8 and so for me it has had a significant welcome impact on my cholesterol management.
Next my simple understanding of how statins and Ezetimibe work is that statins affect the way the liver produces lipids and the balance of the types, whereas Ezetimibe restricts the quantity of lipids and types of lipids that are reabsorbed by the body through the gut wall. And by 'reabsorbed' it is my understanding the body eliminates some body lipids into the gut and then further 'downstream' some or all of it is reabsorbed back. So in short Ezetimibe works for lipids produced within the body which are located in within the gut, not just on those that are ingested. Nonetheless I stand to be corrected if my understand is wrong.
My understanding also. If you don't mind me asking what is your diet like? I am amazed Ezetimibe worked for you, it made no difference at all for me, the logical conclusion is you must be ingesting a greater amount of cholesterol, but of course this may not be the case.
To answer your question. Vast majority home prepared . Balanced. Some dairy. Daily modest fruit and veg, A few eggs here and there. Meat and fish including oily fish. And red wine. Porridge some days for breakfast. Low on sugar and salt. Modest exercise every day. BMI 25. Remember we are all different, and as my wife often reminds me so is our gut biome
Bempedoic Acid + Ezetimibe has a list of "common" side effects even longer than Statins. Within days of starting a course I had lower-back pain that got worse until I stopped taking the tablets and eased very quickly. As is recommended, I waited 2 weeks and tried again but quickly found the pain returning.
I came to the conclusion that it was prescribed as a punishment to people rejecting the standard Statin approach!
I am still trying to contact the doctor to discuss my options and starting to doubt whether the effect of Cholesterol or the treatments prescribed have been properly evaluated.
I used Oxford Vitality, it's a combined Vit K D3. They are reasonably priced and efficient.
Vitamins are not going to even begin to get near the efficiency of a Statin to reduce cholesterol in the majority of people, just as diet won't, it's the liver that is making the cholesterol.
I experienced fatigue, but not sure if it is statin related or not. Have been taking multi-vit supplement, which has helped. I am on 40mg Lipitor (Atorvastatin).
Yes same here! was changed from 20mg Simvistatin to 40mg Atorvistatin and fatigued most days. Deciding is this worth it as my LDL cholesterol only dropped from 2.1 to 1.8?.
My husband had CABG x 5 nearly 6 years ago and has also struggled with the standard package of drugs you are given. He has spoken to his doctor numerous times but he is reluctant to do anything. But there is hope! After a recent non related visit to A &E they said his resting heart rate was too low at 43 and to speak to the GP, which he did. Now finally he has been referred to a cardiologist ((he’s never seen one in the U.K. as he was in Canada at time of surgery). There is an 18 week wait for an appointment but hopefully he’ll get one and may get a few answers. Before the heart attack our doctor in Canada reduced his dose of Atorvastatin from 80mg to 40mg. Then my husband ended up having the heart attack and discovered he needed surgery. This was probably going to happen anyway, but it makes my husband wary of changing things. I’m afraid I have not been able to offer advice, but wish to share that you are definitely not alone in this.
thank you for sharing . It is such a journey. My resting heart rate overnight was 46, I’m pretty sure my cocktail of drugs are interacting to cause me some issues , I only point the finger at the statin as the symptoms seem to clear up when I’m not taking them. Im not against taking them , I just can’t see the point in feeling rotten , I was told I’d feel so much better 🤦🏼🤣..,
I use Solgar Vit D B12 and folate. I had NSTEMI March but have hashimotos thyroiditis for years. Therefore, my vit levels are low due to thyroid. Solgar are the only ones that work for me to increase my levels to optimal. I have tried numerous brands over the years, but none worked for me. They are more expensive then normal over the counter but that was just wasted money for me anyway as they didn't work. Everyone is different though but suppose trial and error. I take 1000 iu of all 3 daily. My levels are optimal with these good luck.
I was subscribed the lowest dosage, so 20mg with no side effects. May 2020 I was pre diabetic, and fully diabetic in Dec 2020. My last H1bac score was 33.
On the NHS guide for statins and side effects it mentions about rare muscle inflammation and possible raised creatine kinase (CK) levels for which there is a blood test and the levels can be raised if you exercise regularly. Obviously this might not be the case and is rare but might be worth checking with GP if all else is failing. You may of course have already had this checked. I hope you get done answers and get sorted soon x
Good point, I had forgotten about this. I had one done and it was high which raised concerns until I told them I had done a half Marathon the day before the test! Worth having though it can be a good indicator of possible Statin damage.
You know, there are many people taking a cocktail of drugs designed to help "protect" against cholesterol, plaque etc. Statins being the most common and widely used. I was put on 80mg per day and now take 20 (only by choice), and this is to placate the cardiologist! I am very pro-active with my life generally and whatever I am advised to take or not to take, I research everything thoroughly. What I have discovered is that the medical profession use statistics in a clever manner but, being an amateur mathematician, I can read through a lot of the claims. This is not arrogance, just a hobby!
For example, in MOST people, the statistical gain from statins is so small as to be not worth the aggravation of side effects. What they do like to do is give you medicines but not the reasons for taking them! They like to be, how shall we say, in control!. I am a pest who wants to know everything. It's my body and my life!
I am not advocating you do this, it's your choice. Good luck.
Pretty much agree . I’m from an investigator, law enforcement back ground and have had 41 years of applying law, processes , guide lines , protocols , procedures and being held accountable for my decisions.. keeping an operational decision log so that I can explain my actions to a court , enquiry , my bosses etc.. when I wrote to my consultant and set out the scenario and facts around my symptoms , how , when , doseage etc then set out 4 questions for her to answer I felt her reply was embarrassing to her and her profession. To paraphrase- I think you’re doing very well , we all have afternoon slumps…. 🤦🏼. I just laughed , I couldn’t believe that she committed it to paper. Have you read Black Box Thinking ? Some great comparisons between the aviation industry and medical profession .. one is totally open and accountable, learning from mistakes and in the business of keeping people alive the other is cloaked in mystery , vagueness , jargon and has a record of failure , cover ups .. can you guess which is which ?
I haven't read the book but I know of it. Matthew Syed writes for the Sunday Times so being a reader I'm familiar with him but, surely all/most inventions are the result of failure as you say. I might give it a try thanks. With regards to statistics, percentages are the biggest area of manipulation to suit one's point of view. An example was the Brexit vote (for good or bad) when the difference from remainers was "only" 3.8 %. The actual difference between 48% and 52% is over 8%. So, for a Brexiteer, over 8% more people voted to leave, not 3.8%! Did you see what I did there? That's what the medical profession does. It's full of Michael Mosleys. Fortunately there are some wonderful craftsmen and women working in the NHS as well!
🤣🤣🤣 Michael Mosleys .. he should live forever with all the stuff he promotes 🤣🤣.. he does my head in. The comparison for aviation vs medical is the lack of ownership, oprneness of failures . Medics se to try try and cover up errors , aviation are open and explain in clear terms and own their failures , it’s taking the medics a while to get over their egos I think 🤣.
Thing is, he promotes products and ideas as if they were his. I saw an article last week where he was warning against five foods that were dangerous with the headline "I'm a Doctor and don't eat these foods". He is a psychiatrist who I believe hardly practiced and has no nutritional qualifications whatsoever!
Considering that the majority (90%+) of those that take statins are not affected by side effects it makes that small gain worth it in my opinion, considering the low cost of statins vs. the cost in money and resources plus the human cost should a heart event occur as a result of not taking them where prescribed. And further the higher the initial level the greater the risk. Nonetheless where lipid levels are initially low and statins and/or alternatives cannot be tolerated there is certainly a case for not taking lipid modifying medication. But the bottom line for me is if you don't get side effects, like me, and your lipids are reduced, in my case significantly, why would you not take them to reduce your heart health risk? And if the medical profession including its armies of professional statisticians, accountants and pharmacologists didn't believe statins were worth it, except for a chosen few, they would not be advocated globally. And certainly within the UK we are all too aware of NICE and its policy of restricting medication unless it is deemed absolutely necessary balancing cost against need. That's why Inclisiran is only available for the chosen few,
That's fine and it's your choice which I respect totally. The difference it makes to the majority of people is negligible and is given as a precaution because, even if it prevents one incident per thousand patients, it is so cost effective and cheaper to prescribe than it is to treat that one person. That is why NICE look upon it as a money saver!
I have come across various references over time stating intolerance levels ranging from 3% to 10% which is why I quote the higher figure, although I can't provide those references. But certainly the patient data sheet for Atorvastatin mentions the most common side effects affect 1 in 10 people which bears this out.
What do you mean by most people? Most people in general or most people with CHD? I think for people with CHD your statement alluding to small gains is misleading to say the least.
Most people in general. My statement is not misleading in the slightest. The gains are marginal. I don't advocate one way or the other for you to take statins. If you think it helps then carry on, it's your life and not for me to "interfere". I'm only sharing my views.
I use Herbal Magic Vitamin D3 +K2. It's all made from plants and algae (I think it's algae). You didn't want silicone dioxide or magnesium stearate in any of you vitamins. Hope this helps.
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry the statins are affecting you like this. I have heard a lot of people who have problems with them. Like all medications, they come with potential side effects, and you either suffer them or you don't!! I've been very lucky in that I have had no problem with them. I had 3 heart attacks and heart bypass surgery last January and I take absolutely everything I am told to take!! There are people that do not believe statins work or that we even need them!! That scares me a wee bit I'm afraid, but of course I understand that people are entitled to their own views and opinions. I think when you have had a heart attack the medical profession automatically gives you a set of heart medication!! It is probably the same wherever you are. So aspirin, a betablocker and a statin is the usual cocktail I suffered constipation when I first took atorvastatin so was reduced from 80mg to 40 but then put back up after the 2nd and 3rd heart attacks!! There are a lot of different options out there and I would try to talk with your GP about them. I hope you find something. Statins are essential.for helping prevent cholesterol.in the arteries of the heart so I wish you good luck. Take care.
I’m not convinced it is the statin on its own , probably the cocktail causing a combined effect. It shouldn’t drop my BP from 115/75 to 100/60. My resting HR this morning was 46.. not against taking meds , just against a feeling worse than before heart attack 🤣
Questions about K2 crop up many times on the PMRGCAuk forum… so I thought I’d ask my GP and a specialist in Rheumatology. I get the same answer, they consider K2 ‘alternative’ medicine and therefore unqualified to advise on the efficacy. I take Vit C and D3 (as prescribed) but not K2. I ask myself this: if it had benefits, eg directing calcium to the bones, why isn’t it prescribed?
There is plenty of money in alternative medicine and supplements. One source quotes the global alternative market to be worth 145 billion USD and rising exponentionally each year. Plus it it an uncontrolled market so there is no way of properly establishing whether the products work as claimed.
Vit. K directs calcium away from the places where it is not wanted, such as arteries, and towards bone, where it is useful. It is not recommended for anyone with blood-clotting issues, however.Regarding being considered as "alternative" medicine, it is actually listed by the NHS and considered beneficial for heart health. They even suggest a daily recommended dosage!
My partner cannot take any form of statin as they have caused severe muscle pains and cramps, swellings, dizziness, vision problems and brain fog, among other things. However, he experiences severe side-effects to many medications, which makes him a very complicated case, in the words of his liver specialist last week.He is prescribed D3, for parathyroid issues, and when not, takes otc supplements. He did try K2 but that dud not agree with him and he also has blood-clotting issues.
To be honest I had no idea D3 was supposed to have an effect on cholesterol. If this is so, in my case it has been useless, as I supplement with a high-strength D3, maintain my Vit. D level at the top of the range, add K2, and also have very high cholesterol!
If you supplement with D3, the best type is that in an oil-filled capsule, as Vit.D is oil-soluble. However, a tablet form is fine if you take it with a main meal.
Vit.K is usually recommended as a co-factor as it directs calcium away from places it is not meant to be, such as arteries, and towards bone instead. However, Vit.K is not suitable for everyone as it affects blood-clotting , so those on certain meds such as warfarin, or those with any type of blood clotting issues, should not take it.
As with any supplement, it is the strength and the purity that counts. Always check the formulation for the least number of additional ingredients possible. Price is not always an indication of quality.
I think we need to distinguish between K and K2. K is given to new born babies to help with blood clotting. K2 is regarded as different. As I’ve had ischemia of the LDA (stented in 2021) I try to be very careful with additives that improve clotting.
Atorvastin affected my liver and I decided to come off them,my gp said there is a medication that lowers cholesterol but is not a statin- you should ask about this!! If on statins you need regular blood tests every 3 months
if you’re intolerant to statins, you could see if you can get inclisarin injections. They really reduce LDL and work through RNA so less chance of side effects, only need them every 6 months too!
Hi, I had all of your systems until my Bisoprol was reduced to 1.25mg I now feel completely different and have loads more energy. I’m still taking 80mg of artovastatin. I have also added Glucosamine which has helped.
Common side effects of statins effecting over 1 in 10 are numerous and muscle pain, tiredness and fatigue are in this common group, I suspect the 1 in 10 are underestimated. On drugs.com reviews and satisfaction survey by 295 reviews 29% had a positive experience while 56% had a negative experience!! while the average rating was only 4.3 overall.
I'm not promoting what I take but just reporting my experience after I read on here about the benefits of taking K2 MK-7 and Vit D
My cholesterol was 6.3 and GP advised I should start taking statins, in December 2023. I said I'd book a cholesterol test in January and discuss again then.
I started doing intermittent fasting lost 10lbs and started taking Alpha Zero One Vitamin K2 MK-7 600ug per capsule 120 capsules made with BioPerine Black Pepper.
Thanks for sharing . My recent cholesterol was 4.5 while off a statin for a month . It had gone up from 2.4 .. Which is where BHF and general medical advice says it should be if on secondary assistance following a cardiac event. 👍🏻
👋 Hi DWizza, Bit late to pass on my experience re.statins. Following my Bypass September 2022 I found myself being Discharged with a large bag of medications 💊. Atorvastatin Bisoprolol etc. I reluctantly took them all as advised until 4mths had expired by then the nausea loose stools where seriously affecting my quality of life. So, I stopped them all bar a daily Aspirin and a low dose PPI. Now compared to most of us on this forum at 72years at the time and having no underlying health issues other than a serious stenosis of the LAD I thought "what could possibly go wrong?"😅
Fortunately, nothing has gone wrong I'm feeling as good as a 73yr old has right to feel. Would I ever considered taking statins or any other medication to lower my Cholesterol,
At my age absolutely not as all the statically evidence I've seen would suggest there is little benefit. Good luck with your journey.
HI i totally understand where you are coming from regarding statins. I have tried every single one and have now been diagnosed with statin induced myelopathy. I also feel that I am suffering with Bisoprolol 1.25mg my heart rate dips to 36 informed doctor but are not concerned. Bp also keeps dropping as low as 86/52. I can’t advise you on vitamin k2 or D3 but wish you luck with what you decide to do.
Several friends cannot take statins. Two were prescribed the Repatha shot which has the added benefit of reducing Lipoprotien(a) for those who also need that.
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