Hi Tall_Allen,
You do not recommend vitamins when on ADT? I am on daily Casodex, has been for several years, and I am taking
- Multivitamins, C-, D-, K- vitamins and magnesium daily.
Should I stop this? Can you elaborate a bit on why you do not recommend taking vitamins? Thanks in advance!
Can you not just try to get them from your diet/sun exposure instead? Or are you mega dosing?
I think people run the risk of causing an imbalance when supplementing. For example, getting D3 from a sun lamp / sun exposure is much more preferable because your body will regulate it to its required level. Too much D3 supplementation will have an effect on calcium absorption amongst other things.
Also, specifically for D3, sun exposure will involve sulphation. Your cholesterol will be sulphated in creating the D3. This makes it water soluble so will be much more effective than a supplement.
I'm not against supplements,just would consider trying to get what you body needs without it if possible.
There are supplements I'd personally consider, like nattokinaise or serrapeptaise for example.
But even then you can get a LOT of nattokinaise from eating natto. Although it's an acquired taste and I could see why people would rather just take the pill.
Good point... sometimes its really hard to get your recommended anything ... the food that we get today is just Not as good as it used to be...but why nattokinaise and why serrapeptaise...thanks
You can't get serrapeptaise in your diet, it's from the bacteria of bacteria in a silk worms gut. This is how it can get out of a cocoon. Serrapeptaise is an enzyme that dissolves fibrin. In effect, it removes fibrin from you arteries. Nattokinaise is also an enzyme that interacts with fibrin. It's a natural blood thinner that is derived from natto, a fermented soy bean, but most people can't eat it. It's MUCH better to eat the natto. I believe you should always prefer food over supplementation if possible. It has an excellent nutrition profile, and is very cheap. Natto is an incredible food.
Both are great for cardiovascular issues.
Thanks for Natto info. Below is more
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ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
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Thx... I knew all that information... My wife used to take natto... It helped tremendously with her endometriosis... I was wondering why you recommended both of those for prostate cancer... But.I guess you were just recommending them.As general supplements... That you obviously can't get from diet too easily or without gagging... Is there any benefit for either of these with the prostate cancer?
In general, the only supplement that I would really consider taking, unless there was a deficiency, is serrapeptase. That removes fibrin. Thats because you can't get it from the diet.
The natto is where the nattokinase supplement comes from. It also deals with fibrin. It has an excellent nutrition profile. It also has blood thinning and anticoalgulation effects. Heart health is generally a concern from the possible side effects for PCa treatments. The natto food is FAR superior to the supplement, but it's hard for some people to take it. There also isoflavones etc with the soy, but that not why personally I'd take it.
Both are good for cardiovascular health. All other supplements I'd consider trying to get from the diet or the sun.
Sun exposure, for example, is FAR superior to supplementing D3 because it gets regulated by your body so you don't get imbalances (like calcium absorbtion) but much more importantly because as the D3 is made, your cholesterol gets sulphated. This makes the D3 water soluble and much more effective since the supplement is fat soluble.
IMO, diet/sun exposure is ALWAYS the best way to go, if possible. But like I said, if you had a deficiency in something I can see the benefit of short term supplementation to get you up an running. If you are D3 deficient, it's not a linear curve. Its more like an 'S' shaped than linear. When you supplement, you may initially experience little effects in your bloodwork since you have to get over the bottom part of the curves plateau. Supplementation can be good for that initial push - IMO.
Edit: forgot to mention: natto is also an excellent source of K2 which deals with calcium absorbtion. This is why people take it with D3 because D3 will increase the calcium you absorb.
Haven't seen those substances mentioned here since Nal left! Although I've taken both.
Yep, natto is a real good food. Also has Vit C, magnesium, K2. You could probably drop a few bottles of supplements by taking natto instead. It will be much cheaper,that's for sure. You can buy it in Asian stores,usually frozen. Ticks a lot of boxes.
Thanks. I don't know that I've ever consumed actual natto. There is an Asian grocery not far away, so I'll check it out. Sounds like it definitely should be in my mix.
It's a proper super food. Be warned though, most people don't like the taste. I do, but that's because I used to live in Japan and acquired a taste for it.Make sure to mix in the soy sauce and mustard. They usually come with that.
Thanks for this information. I too have seen TA discourage supplements. I am on ADT for the rest of my days so I am told. Concerning supplements I have been on Adcal-d3 (2x1500mg/day) for 2-3 years so am concerned by what I read here.
My recent blood tests show my calcium level middle of the range. Only items out of range (apart from PSA) are Creatinine and Lymphocytes, both slightly low.
We clearly do not have as much sun in Uk as Spain but I think there’s enough albeit through the clouds! Playing golf gets me out there.
So I am wondering now if I should stop this Adcal-d3 medication or cut it back. I have Alendronic Acid for Osteopenia (70mg/wk). Would appreciate your view as I see the MO end of May.
For info one 1500mg tablet of this medication translates to 600mg of calcium and 10 micrograms of vitamin D.
Well first off, I'd be cautious when taking any advice from anyone on the internet. Your med team will be prescribing them and their dosage for a reason.For D3 supplementation though, it's not actually how much you're taking, it's really what your bloodwork says. The daily IU is really irrelevant. For example, if you were deficient in your blood work, you could be initially on a high dose to get you to some level and then reduce it once you get there. The required blood concentration is what you're trying to achieve, so that's the thing you need to measure.
But if you live in the UK, you could buy a sun lamp and get it that way.
If it was me, and i was deficienct, I would probably supplement to get to some level additionally with a sun lamp. Then once you've hit the required level, stop the supplements but continue with the sun lamp only.
The calcium absorption is affected by the level of D3. So you obviously need to monitor that as well. If you were deficient with D3/K2 your calcium absorption could be low. The K2 affects the absorption as well.
Personally I'd be trying to get it all without supplementation eventually.
Maybe the UK get some sunny weather this year..
If your serum levels are low, you should supplement, otherwise don't. Spain has plenty of sunshine and good food, so why do you need a supplement?
Here's an explanation for Vitamin D:
prostatecancer.news/2018/07...
Vitamin C acts as an antioxidant, especially combined with Vitamin E in your multivitamin. Antioxidant supplements are known to contribute to causing cancer.
Your body did not evolve to deal with your overloading your body with single micronutrients. It (and your microbiome) evolved to extract the micronutrients you need from the foods you eat.
Thanks for clarification!
So, do you also advise against taking one of those daily multivitamins with 50 nutrients, including Vit E, even though the dosages of each ingredient are not extremely high?
So, do you also advise against taking one of those daily multivitamins with 50 nutrients, including Vit E, even though the dosages of each ingredient are not extremely high?
I think food can supply all micronutrients needed.
Thank you
Check out this scientific paper by Song et al.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/303...
From the conclusions of this meta-analysis of 7808 men, they wrote:
"This meta-analysis suggested that higher 25-hydroxyvitamin D level was associated with a reduction of mortality in prostate cancer patients and vitamin D is an important protective factor in the progression and prognosis of prostate cancer."
Interestingly enough, when I was diagnosed with prostate cancer three years ago, my 25-hydroxyvitamin D level was 26. While not significantly low (<10) it was in the needs improvement category and I believe one of my last readings was around 55. I hope the supplements are helping!
Many do not understand levels of evidence. It leads to lots of bad advice on this forum.
Both my medical onc and nutritionist have me taking 1200mg of calcium with vit D. This is to prevent bone loss and osteoporosis due to adt. Everything I’ve read about this backs this up. I’d assumed that this was standard practice. If anyone has additional advice or information about this I’d love to hear it. Or should I just follow John’s example and eat 2 scoops of ice every day?😉 Thanks!
Quarky (great name, btw) are you osteopenic/poric? I was the former and my MO put me on Prolia as soon as we learned from a DEXA scan. More recently I wondered about stopping Calcium as you are taking, and she said if I did that and my blood Ca levels got too low, I'd have to stop Prolia. I also take a lot of D3 (4000+ IU/day), K2 Mk 7, and Magnesium. I also exercise a lot. Resistance exercise is good for BMD too.
Thanks Derf. I had a bone scan done and the results showed that my bone density was good so no problem with osteoporosis yet. I’ve only been on adt (Lupron and Abiraterone) for 5 months, and have also incorporated resistance exercise too. Tall Allen’s comments about supplements though made me wonder specifically about calcium. Allen, can you clarify whether a calcium supplement is beneficial when on adt?
I went to the study that shows D3 has no impact; here is what is in the abstract; nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/N...
RESULTS
A total of 25,871 participants, including 5106 black participants, underwent randomization. Supplementation with vitamin D was not associated with a lower risk of either of the primary end points (risk of cancer or cardio disease). During a median follow-up of 5.3 years, cancer was diagnosed in 1617 participants in the vitamin D group and 824 in the placebo group; hazard ratio, 0.96; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.88 to 1.06; P=0.47).
#1; For reference the study that has a P factor of 0.47 means that the probability that the result is wrong is 47%, or nearly 50-50; its a toss up. I would not rely on any study that has P factors that are that high.
#2; The NEJM study uses 2000 IU of VIT D...that is too low. This study does not study the Dose Response of VIT D3. No wonder they found no effect.
Here is my research on this subject; healthunlocked.com/active-s...
The main study in this LINK states the following in its abstract; pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/303...
ABSTRACT:
Seven eligible cohort studies with 7808 participants were included. The results indicated that higher vitamin D level could reduce the risk of death among prostate cancer patients. The summary HR of prostate cancer-specific mortality correlated with an increment of every 20 nmol/L in circulating vitamin D level was 0.91, with 95% CI 0.87-0.97, P = 0.002.
#1; the P factor here is 0.002, meaning the chance that the result is wrong is 0.2 percent, or 2/10th of a chance out of a 100...much better, tighter study.
#2; its important that the DOSE response is understood; the 1st study does not address this. If you stay at 2000 IU that is equal to 50 nmol/L. In the study referenced above there were major effects noted all the way up to 100 nmol/L and beyond, or at 4000 IU and up. This is perhaps why the NEJM study found nothing.
I would err on the odds that increasing my VIT D3 intake will have a positive effect on reduced PCa mortality. Now, this is point #3; different outcomes are measured between the studies. The 1st study has an end point of decreased cancer (PCa not specified) and the 2d study which shows impacts has an end point of reduced PCa mortality. But PCSM (prostate cancer specific mortality) is a major SOC benchmark so its an "effect" of VIT D3 on PCa for sure; the one that really counts. Finally, if my PCa mortality is dropping all the ancillary negative effects associated with PCa are also dropping. That is my conclusion based on the science as I understand it. TNX Rick
Both Zytiga n prednisone are mineral strippers. My OC has me on high dose potassium supplements twice daily and I am still low on Potassium, Iron, D and Calcium. I do take some supplements but the main one I take is Pectasol.
As you see, you get lots of bad advice when you post publicly. Everyone has opinions, but few are science-based. Some think experiments on mice is enough to inform patients. Everything works in mice. Lucky mice!
Don't expect a kind or constructive word on supplements from TA. 150 million supplement takers can't be right. Not a single one. BTW my PCP suggested B complex vitamins for my hamstring cramps and she is part of the faculty at a medical school.
I take supplements for bone, heart, and brain health as well as to potentially suppress prostate cancer. Few Americans get enough iodine in their diet, that's why they went with iodized salt. Oops, too much salt not good for you too ... unless you live in the desert and sweat bullets.
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